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Thread: Numbers 14:11- 20--the power of petition before God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    You didnt answer my question, and that is my biggest issue with open theism, it doesnt answer that question.

    One more time - HOW does God being able to know what you will choose, stop your ability to make a choice?
    I've answered this question already, and you ignore it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    No, but that is irrelevant. You still chose to lie and he just knew you were going to.
    But where's the choice if you can't choose not to lie?

    Just like Jesus already knew who would betray Him. Pretty clear He knew it, so did Jesus make Judas betray Him, or did He just know that is what would happen?

    If Christ made Him, then Judas had no free will.
    When did Jesus know Judas would betray Him? Before, or after Judas had decided to do so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    You guys are who are trying to claim that foreknowledge doesnt mean foreknowledge yet you admit He knew man would sin - well if He knew, then He either sees the future or He made man sin, there is no other way to see that.
    Yes there is. Have you ever seen A Christmas Story? If you have then you know the most famous line, "You'll shoot your eye out."

    Now, of course we know he didn't, but he did injure himself and thought he had lost his eye at first.

    We also know the adults were being a little stupid with that warning, as one cannot shoot oneself when pointing the gun in the opposite direction. In order to shoot his eye out he would have had to do it on purpose. But we also know the adults were speaking in hyperbole. They really just meant the kid would hurt himself. And he did, didn't he? Did the adults make him? Of course not. Could they see the future in the way you say God can? No. But they had foreknowledge nonetheless, because they knew the kid was not prepared for shooting a gun, even a BB gun.

    So, we see that foreknowledge can exist if based upon present knowledge. So when Jesus knew Judas would betray Him Judas had already made plans to do so. And when Jesus told Peter he would betray Him three times before the rooster crowed it was because Peter was weak and scared, and Jesus knew that if Peter were questioned regarding his connection to Jesus after Jesus was arrested that Peter would deny it, out of fear.

    I keep noting that none of you will or can explain WHY you cannot make a choice, just because He already knows what you will choose.

    You can keep beating around the bush but untill you can answer that, i cannot believe open theism.
    I already have, and you left the conversation.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post

    How does God make your choice for you, just because He already knows what you will choose?

    Im not interested in anything else till you respond to that.
    Seems to me if God knows my choice to a certainty, before I made the choice, I would not have the ability to do otherwise. You, it seems, do not agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    But where's the choice if you can't choose not to lie?
    Exactly!

    When did Jesus know Judas would betray Him? Before, or after Judas had decided to do so?
    Good question. I’d like to hear Angel4Truth’s answer, as well.

    So, we see that foreknowledge can exist if based upon present knowledge. So when Jesus knew Judas would betray Him Judas had already made plans to do so. And when Jesus told Peter he would betray Him three times before the rooster crowed it was because Peter was weak and scared, and Jesus knew that if Peter were questioned regarding his connection to Jesus after Jesus was arrested that Peter would deny it, out of fear.
    Excellent points!

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    There is a more fundamental problem with petitionary prayer which can be found here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    One more time - HOW does God being able to know what you will choose, stop your ability to make a choice?
    If your choice is to be free then it cannot be determined. So if you have choice A and choice B and are free, then you are able to choose either one, right? If you choose B then you can legitimately say, "I could have chosen A had I wanted to," and vice-versa.

    But if there is certain knowledge that you will choose A, then apparently you are not able to choose B. So if God says to you today that tomorrow you will certainly have a hamburger for lunch, are you free to have a piece of pizza for lunch? Are you justified in saying, "Tomorrow I am free to choose whatever I want for lunch"?

    If you are in fact free, then you can in fact choose the pizza, and thereby show God to be incorrect. If you cannot choose the pizza, then you are not free to choose either a hamburger or a piece of pizza. That's a dilemma.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delmar View Post
    Seems to me if God knows my choice to a certainty, before I made the choice, I would not have the ability to do otherwise. You, it seems, do not agree.
    Then he would know you made a different choice if you made a different one, how is he choosing just because he knows about your choice?

    "Around the country, progressive bullies have attacked Christians for daring to put their faith ahead of the pet causes of those who feign compassion while destroying life-giving liberties. What we are seeing is a scorched-earth, take-no-prisoners approach as the wildfire burns across our land. It is not enough that Christians be quiet. Christians must be silenced and punished. Their faith cannot be respected. Legislation that ensures people are free to live and work according to their faith without fear of being punished by government must be stopped and decried as discrimination...There is one key reason that those on the Left must force their beliefs on the rest of us: if they didn't force their craziness on us, we would never embrace it." ~Erick Erickson
    Proverbs 3:5-8

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    I completely disagree that you cannot make your own choice just because God knows what your choice is, the action was taken by you, he just already saw it, he didnt force you to take the action you chose.

    So HOW is God choosing for you, by knowing your choice.

    "Around the country, progressive bullies have attacked Christians for daring to put their faith ahead of the pet causes of those who feign compassion while destroying life-giving liberties. What we are seeing is a scorched-earth, take-no-prisoners approach as the wildfire burns across our land. It is not enough that Christians be quiet. Christians must be silenced and punished. Their faith cannot be respected. Legislation that ensures people are free to live and work according to their faith without fear of being punished by government must be stopped and decried as discrimination...There is one key reason that those on the Left must force their beliefs on the rest of us: if they didn't force their craziness on us, we would never embrace it." ~Erick Erickson
    Proverbs 3:5-8

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    We know God knew Judas would betray Him, did Christ force Judas to do it?

    This means either God just knew what He was planning and planned around it, or God made Judas sin.

    Which one?

    "Around the country, progressive bullies have attacked Christians for daring to put their faith ahead of the pet causes of those who feign compassion while destroying life-giving liberties. What we are seeing is a scorched-earth, take-no-prisoners approach as the wildfire burns across our land. It is not enough that Christians be quiet. Christians must be silenced and punished. Their faith cannot be respected. Legislation that ensures people are free to live and work according to their faith without fear of being punished by government must be stopped and decried as discrimination...There is one key reason that those on the Left must force their beliefs on the rest of us: if they didn't force their craziness on us, we would never embrace it." ~Erick Erickson
    Proverbs 3:5-8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eeset View Post
    Mankind is incapable of comprehending God in my opinion.
    Excellent point! My point is that prayer can cause God to respond in a favorable way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    I completely disagree that you cannot make your own choice just because God knows what your choice is, the action was taken by you, he just already saw it, he didnt force you to take the action you chose.

    So HOW is God choosing for you, by knowing your choice.
    Nobody is saying that He chooses for you. The issue is whether or not you can choose otherwise if it is knowable at all before you are faced with the occasion in which the "choice" takes place.

    So, if it is knowable [can be known], if God knows, or even if He does not, can you choose otherwise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    We know God knew Judas would betray Him, did Christ force Judas to do it?
    When did He know? Before Judas had chosen to do so?

    This means either God just knew what He was planning and planned around it, or God made Judas sin.

    Which one?
    It depends on when He knew it. Your illustration above only gives the idea that it was known to God only after Judas had made the decision, and as I agree with that I posit that God planned around that; or more to the fact planned along with it [used it to His advantage; to bring about His goal].


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Nobody is saying that He chooses for you. The issue is whether or not you can choose otherwise if it is knowable at all before you are faced with the occasion in which the "choice" takes place.
    No, why would you when you already made a choice? You are still who is making the choice that God knows about.

    So, if it is knowable [can be known], if God knows, or even if He does not, can you choose otherwise?
    Its not a question of can you, no matter what you choose - He is just aware of it.


    When did He know? Before Judas had chosen to do so?
    Yes and He even said so more than once.


    It depends on when He knew it. Your illustration above only gives the idea that it was known to God only after Judas had made the decision, and as I agree with that I posit that God planned around that; or more to the fact planned along with it [used it to His advantage; to bring about His goal].
    Yes, even though God knew what Judas would do, Judas chose to do it, and God used it for His glory.

    So , Did God make Judas do it by knowing about it? (no)

    Another example, Christ knew Peter would deny Him 3 times, before it happened.

    Did God make Peter do it?

    "Around the country, progressive bullies have attacked Christians for daring to put their faith ahead of the pet causes of those who feign compassion while destroying life-giving liberties. What we are seeing is a scorched-earth, take-no-prisoners approach as the wildfire burns across our land. It is not enough that Christians be quiet. Christians must be silenced and punished. Their faith cannot be respected. Legislation that ensures people are free to live and work according to their faith without fear of being punished by government must be stopped and decried as discrimination...There is one key reason that those on the Left must force their beliefs on the rest of us: if they didn't force their craziness on us, we would never embrace it." ~Erick Erickson
    Proverbs 3:5-8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    The only place to offer burnt offerings to God is in the temple in Jerusalem.



    Yes and He even said so more than once.
    Scripture doesn’t say that God knew what Judas would do before he determined in his heart to betray Jesus. If it does, please give the Scripture.

    So , Did God make Judas do it by knowing about it? (no)
    Judas had determined in his heart to betray Jesus. At that point, God knew Judas would betray Jesus.

    Another example, Christ knew Peter would deny Him 3 times, before it happened.
    God could see into Peter’s heart and knew he was ready to deny Jesus given certain circumstances. All God had to do was put three people in Peter’s path that night who would confront him and then make a rooster crow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    I completely disagree that you cannot make your own choice just because God knows what your choice is, the action was taken by you, he just already saw it, he didnt force you to take the action you chose.

    So HOW is God choosing for you, by knowing your choice.
    I explained the Open Theist view here. It is not in any sense irrational; you have yet to address the argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    No, why would you when you already made a choice? You are still who is making the choice that God knows about.
    When did I make the choice?

    Its not a question of can you, no matter what you choose - He is just aware of it.
    How is He aware of it before it exists?

    Yes and He even said so more than once.
    Scripture?

    So , Did God make Judas do it by knowing about it? (no)
    There isn't a single person in this thread making that argument except you. Stop it.

    Another example, Christ knew Peter would deny Him 3 times, before it happened.

    Did God make Peter do it?
    I've already answered this issue, and you know that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by zippy2006 View Post
    If your choice is to be free then it cannot be determined. So if you have choice A and choice B and are free, then you are able to choose either one, right? If you choose B then you can legitimately say, "I could have chosen A had I wanted to," and vice-versa.

    But if there is certain knowledge that you will choose A, then apparently you are not able to choose B. So if God says to you today that tomorrow you will certainly have a hamburger for lunch, are you free to have a piece of pizza for lunch? Are you justified in saying, "Tomorrow I am free to choose whatever I want for lunch"?

    If you are in fact free, then you can in fact choose the pizza, and thereby show God to be incorrect. If you cannot choose the pizza, then you are not free to choose either a hamburger or a piece of pizza. That's a dilemma.


    Perhaps the problem is that we are understanding freedom improperly. It seems to me that everyone is thinking of freedom in terms of choice, but isn't action merely an expression of being? Think about it. Isn't God the freest being? Yet, how many of us would argue that God can sin? None, I would wager, though someone could try to convince me otherwise, I suppose. Given that, how many of us would argue that God isn't free. So, maybe freedom isn't rooted in action but in being.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zippy2006 View Post
    I explained the Open Theist view here. It is not in any sense irrational; you have yet to address the argument.
    Argument there is not rational because God saw what you chose only, that argument would only be valid if God made you choose, then of course you could not choose otherwise since you cannot redo an action that has already occurred either.

    God saw what you did as a past event since He knows the end from the beginning, since the past cannot be changed in your time, you still made your own choice - He is just aware of it.

    "Around the country, progressive bullies have attacked Christians for daring to put their faith ahead of the pet causes of those who feign compassion while destroying life-giving liberties. What we are seeing is a scorched-earth, take-no-prisoners approach as the wildfire burns across our land. It is not enough that Christians be quiet. Christians must be silenced and punished. Their faith cannot be respected. Legislation that ensures people are free to live and work according to their faith without fear of being punished by government must be stopped and decried as discrimination...There is one key reason that those on the Left must force their beliefs on the rest of us: if they didn't force their craziness on us, we would never embrace it." ~Erick Erickson
    Proverbs 3:5-8

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