A Momentary Life...

[ok doser]

I have a momentary question:

If lay => laid, why not play => plaid, and why doesn't laid rhyme with plaid?

it does

doesn't it?

[Town Heretic]

Trollin, trollin, trollin...rawhide? There's probably an ointment.

[ok doser]

What i wondered was, does a doe know?

[Idolater]

Your entire weighted sin context isn't one I've accepted as legitimate outside of how you choose to order things for yourself. If that ordering makes dangerous and offensive behavior something that isn't worthy of reprimand I think you need to adjust your scale.

It's a Christian thing, Town.

[Town Heretic]

It's a Christian thing, Town.

It wasn't a part of my traditions and upbringing in a number of churches, all Christian. But then, they were all Protestant as well. So it must be more of a Catholic instruction, which probably means it was in my Episcopal background as well, but I wasn't a particularly keen member in those days and that was decades ago.

[Idolater]

It wasn't a part of my traditions and upbringing in a number of churches, all Christian.

Same here---absolutely. Black-and-white.

But then, they were all Protestant as well.

Me too.

So it must be more of a Catholic instruction, which probably means it was in my Episcopal background as well, but I wasn't a particularly keen member in those days and that was decades ago.

I don't know from Episcopal, but it is absolutely Catholic. The idea is that objectively, sins can be ranked or weighted according to gravity, to their seriousness, just objectively. For instance killing, regardless of intent, is the gravest or at least among the gravest of sins, that's regardless of intent, even justifiable killing is still grave offense.

Then the Church does what the law does, which is she weighs free will. How much freedom does the grave sinner exercise, when they gravely sin? There's a pretty long list of things explicitly suggested by the Church's bishops, concerning circumstances or factors present, that tend to diminish, attenuate, and sometimes nullify altogether, human freedom in a moment of human decision---sometimes, it's not a free choice.

And when it's not a free choice, the offense remains grave, but the culpability or guilt goes along with free choice, and if the freedom is diminished, attenuated, or even nullified altogether, then so goes the guilt that's imputed to the sinner.

So the Church teaches that lighter sins can never be 'mortal' or fatal sins; sins that kill the love that would otherwise dwell within you, as a Christian. But the practical matter is that commission of grave trespasses breaks communion with the Catholic Church, and this is the playing out of the Apostles' moral teaching, that straddles their exposition of the Gospel, they come together in the concept of 'in full communion,' which is like a broad side of a barn for some people, and for many it is a struggle, and so the Church's corrective action for those who struggle, is the confessional, where Christians who have committed grave sin, can reconcile with the Church, authorizing him to once again licitly receive Holy Communion.

His freedom may very well have been null, when he chose grave matter. The Church is only interested in the commission, wrt 'in full communion.' The Church understands, and teaches explicitly, that oftentimes, there are circumstances that diminish, attenuate, or nullify altogether our free will, in our otherwise free will choices, to commit grave moral offense. The commission itself though, breaks 'in full communion,' and necessitates reconciliation in order to not run afoul of 1st Corinthians 11:27 KJV & 1st Corinthians 11:29 KJV, and Confession is one of the seven sacraments, and the sacraments are all found in Scripture, but they were instituted by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; His Apostles confirm.

Holy Catholicism is everything I didn't know I was actually desperately searching for as a Protestant.

[Town Heretic]

The idea is that objectively, sins can be ranked or weighted according to gravity, to their seriousness, just objectively.

I get the idea, but to my mind that's conflating moral truth and something else. What I mean is that the wages of sin is death. So every sin carries that sentence and requires grace. To weigh them as a moral proposition is pointless to my mind and a dangerous invitation to personal vanity and the judgement of others.

Holy Catholicism is everything I didn't know I was actually desperately searching for as a Protestant.

Then I am genuinely happy for you and wish you well in your walk.

[annabenedetti]

Starting the day on a note of joy and hope: six boys have been rescued so far by Thai Navy divers. Their bravery (both rescuers and rescued) is breathtaking, especially when you see the graphic of what they had to overcome.

[annabenedetti]

That narrow stretch is only 15 inches in diameter.

I can't imagine.

[The Barbarian]

I have a momentary question:

If lay => laid, why not play => plaid,

They both derive from OE -ede (did) as in "lay-did" or "play-did." Spelling in English was phonetic for a long time; often people would spell their own names in various ways, before orthography became standardized, and dictionaries published. In the 1700s, "plaid" was sometimes used as a spelling for "played."
https://tinyurl.com/ybdo6kav

So it wasn't consistent. And orthography changes over time. "Donut" is becoming more common; it used to be mainly in the United States, but it's becoming used in other English-speaking nations, now.

[Idolater]

I get the idea, but to my mind that's conflating moral truth and something else. What I mean is that the wages of sin is death. So every sin carries that sentence and requires grace.

In the beginning, there was one sin, and its penalty was death.

But Adam and Eve did not die when they sinned. So already, in the garden, there was grace. Their sin was forgiven, and the Christian understanding is that it was forgiven only because of Christ's then future sacrifice, that He would successfully offer to pay the eternal penalty for their sin, and for the sins of the whole world.

Regarding Church, is the idea of 'in full communion,' which is being authorized to receive Holy Communion with the Church. Commission of grave sins breaks that communion, and requires reconciliation, through the sacrament of the same name; aka 'confession' and 'penance.'

The commission of light sins does not break communion with the Church, because light sins are 'forgiven' = 'venial.' It is grace, you're right about that. It is a part of Christ's work, that light sins, even when committed on purpose, with full knowledge and with deliberate consent, do not break communion with His Church.

To weigh them as a moral proposition is pointless to my mind and a dangerous invitation to personal vanity and the judgement of others.

I don't understand what you mean by 'invitation to . . . the judgment of others.' If we take Christ's stance on light sins, and if we apply what He already applies to them, iow if we forgive them automatically, immediately, and out of hand, then how does that invite judgment? I would think it'd do the opposite, and encourage inclusion, acceptance, tolerance, and unity.

Then I am genuinely happy for you and wish you well in your walk.

Unsurprising. I've seen you do apologetics for the faith, and you're excellent at it; it may be a gift of the Spirit for you, which is ultimately given by Him for the sake of us, His Church, those who believe in Christ.

So, I want you to examine Holy Catholicism, to see if it's true, because what I've found in my own experience with apologetics, is that Catholicism is a bulwark that cannot be rhetorically defeated, once you know what you need to know about it.

If Catholicism = Christianity, then arguing for Catholicism = preaching the Gospel.

This is all of course fwiw, I am just advertising that in decades of theological investigation, I've come to conclude what many non-Catholics have found themselves, that the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus Himself founded.

[Town Heretic]

In the beginning, there was one sin, and its penalty was death.

In the beginning Adam wasn't fashioned to die, but he did surely die. There was the penalty. Among descendants who were born to die in the flesh the penalty exacted would be more or it would be absent.

Regarding Church, is the idea of 'in full communion,' which is being authorized to receive Holy Communion with the Church. Commission of grave sins breaks that communion, and requires reconciliation, through the sacrament of the same name; aka 'confession' and 'penance.'

From this point on you're substituting Catholic teaching for scripture, a thing that Protestants eschew. It's something you believe, but not a belief we share. That said, I won't squabble with those who recognize Christ as God and rely on Him for their salvation.

I don't understand what you mean by 'invitation to . . . the judgment of others.'

When we value one sin over another, odd as that is to even say, we make it easier to say, "Sure, I'm a sinner, but not like Pete. His sins are worse." It invites judgment instead of gratitude and supports the errant notion that men can or will attain something of value by their actions, when our acts have nothing to do with grace, which we cannot earn, but should instead be an expression of our love and desire to follow the example of Christ. And it is human nature to think better of ourselves than we should, within any context. So people tend to believe they're smarter than average when the numbers won't allow for it, and people are the heroes of their own narrative, even within the context of accepting that they cannot be. It's a human impulse that monkeys with our best aims and intentions.

As for Catholicism, it gave me Brother Lawrence and Merton, so that's to the good.

[Idolater]

In the beginning Adam wasn't fashioned to die, but he did surely die. There was the penalty. Among descendants who were born to die in the flesh the penalty exacted would be more or it would be absent.

I don't disagree with this, but my point was that God said, "...of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Ge2:17KJV). They didn't die that day; that's the grace; and as I said, it's the Christian view that the reason that God extended grace even in the garden, was because of Christ's eventual passion on the cross.

From this point on you're substituting Catholic teaching for scripture

There's a difference between 'substituting' and developing the teaching that is seminally within the Scripture. Each of the Church's seven sacraments find their origin within the Scripture somewhere, whether it's from Christ Himself, as with Baptism and the Eucharist, or with another New Testament writer/bishop, such as James instructing the Church to, "Confess your faults one to another" (Jas5:16KJV), which was developed by the Church into the sacrament of Penance/Reconciliation/Confession, where confessors (usually priests) were the ones mediating the relationship between Christians and the Body of Christ, especially wrt celebrating Communion or the Eucharist.

I personally have found no examples of Catholic teaching contravening what the Christian Bible teaches. Especially not since the Christian Bible teaches of the beginning of the Catholic Church, which was, objectively, the only Church, for about 1000 years.

, a thing that Protestants eschew.

And the notion of eschewing what the Catholic Church's college of bishops teach, is not found in Scripture. That idea was invented in 1517 or thereabouts.

It's something you believe, but not a belief we share. That said, I won't squabble with those who recognize Christ as God and rely on Him for their salvation.

We all believe the Gospel, that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead.

When we value one sin over another, odd as that is to even say

I doubt that you find it odd to say that murder is a graver sin than is a white lie, Town.

, we make it easier to say, "Sure, I'm a sinner, but not like Pete. His sins are worse."

I've found the opposite is the reality. Catholics don't think like that; they rather think that our sins are all our own business, and the business of the confessor (again, usually the priest). The worse the sin, the more grace that is required, and thankfully, the more grace that is offered as well.

It invites judgment instead of gratitude and supports the errant notion that men can or will attain something of value by their actions, when our acts have nothing to do with grace, which we cannot earn, but should instead be an expression of our love and desire to follow the example of Christ. And it is human nature to think better of ourselves than we should, within any context. So people tend to believe they're smarter than average when the numbers won't allow for it, and people are the heroes of their own narrative, even within the context of accepting that they cannot be. It's a human impulse that monkeys with our best aims and intentions.

The notion of 'in full communion with the Church' is one that in my view handles the universal witness of Scripture well, all those exhortations to the Church against sinning, with many sins named that the Church has gone on to categorize as 'grave matter,' which follows the seminal idea that John gives us in 1st John 5, this idea of 'a sin unto death,' and, 'a sin not unto death' (1Jo5:16-17KJV).

As for Catholicism, it gave me Brother Lawrence and Merton, so that's to the good.

I don't know who those people are, but there has been a lot of good to come from the Catholic Church, which, if like me you believe that she is Jesus's actual Church, shouldn't be and isn't surprising.

[ok doser]

When we value one sin over another, odd as that is to even say, we make it easier to say, "Sure, I'm a sinner, but not like Pete. His sins are worse." It invites judgment ....

even Christians will stand before the judgement throne

instead of gratitude and supports the errant notion that men can or will attain something of value by their actions, when our acts have nothing to do with grace, which we cannot earn, but should instead be an expression of our love and desire to follow the example of Christ. And it is human nature to think better of ourselves than we should, within any context. So people tend to believe they're smarter than average when the numbers won't allow for it, and people are the heroes of their own narrative, even within the context of accepting that they cannot be. It's a human impulse that monkeys with our best aims and intentions.

As for Catholicism, it gave me Brother Lawrence and Merton, so that's to the good.

all that airy-fairy Brother Lawrence and Merton crap invites the kind of "Christian" who believe that Christ's saving grace can cover any bad behavior, so why change?

and so we have the current climate where churches are afraid (or too foolish) to say that homosexuality is an evil abomination, that adultery and child molestation are evil abominations

[Town Heretic]

I don't disagree with this, but my point was that God said, "...of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Ge2:17KJV). They didn't die that day; that's the grace; and as I said, it's the Christian view that the reason that God extended grace even in the garden, was because of Christ's eventual passion on the cross.

Doesn't look like we're separated on the point.

There's a difference between 'substituting' and developing the teaching that is seminally within the Scripture.

I'd say there's a difference between scripture and what men do with it and how they see and connect it within their own mind. When you do that and create traditions born of that, elevating them to equal authority with scripture I think you have a problem, and the Catholic Church has that problem...though to be fair, it's not only a Catholic problem, merely more obvious and institutionalized.

We all believe the Gospel, that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead.

Amen.

I doubt that you find it odd to say that murder is a graver sin than is a white lie, Town.

I'd say that as a pragmatic matter, it is worse to kill a man than to lie to him. The latter robs him of the truth, the former robs him of any hope to approach it. But given any sin is sufficient to warrant my separation from the perfect and good, it's a distinction that matters more to me than it could to God, whom I will not meet save by grace.

I'm omitting a good deal, but consider it read and I appreciate your sharing your particular beliefs, whether or not we are of one mind.

I don't know who those people are, but there has been a lot of good to come from the Catholic Church, which, if like me you believe that she is Jesus's actual Church, shouldn't be and isn't surprising.

Thomas Merton was a Catalan trappist monk and a profound writer who died in the late 60s. His writings were broadly popular and respected. Among them was the book that introduced me to Merton, The Seven Story Mountain. He was probably the most highly regarded and certainly the most well-known Catholic writer of the last century. Brother Lawrence died in the late 1600s and is known for Practice of the Presence of God, put together by the Abbe de Beaufort, envoy to Cardinal Noailles. The envoy was sent by the Cardinal to investigate Lawrence and they had four conversations that were put into written form. I believe you can find them online for free. It's not a lot of writing, but it's a remarkable thing to read.