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Thread: Do you see All, Some, None of the Spiritual Gifts in Operation Today?

  1. #91
    Over 5000 post club Letsargue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    I prophesy that sozo and johnw and I will never agree on many things.

    The bigger problem here is the lack of the fruit of the Spirit/character, not spiritual gifts which are intended for the corporate, church setting more than posts on the internet among individuals.


    Does it take a Prophet of God to say that!! - Who really expects to ever see a miracle anywhere!!

    Paul -- 040212
    ---Gal. 4:16.
    ---"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth"???

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    Silver Member Totton Linnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    Was it Gods will that Paul suffer a 'thorn" in his flesh?

    Do you think Timothy was rebelling against God by taking the advice of taking a little wine for his frequent infirmities of the stomach?

    Did Timothy not have enough faith?

    Was it Gods will that Timothy be sick so often?
    Yes you have found two gnats and one of them is a sorry one but the camel in the corner you overlook.....the page after page testimony that God is Healer.

    What about ol' Epaphroditus? I think that is his name, he was sick....ah but God had mercy on him so that spoils your case....he was sick because he worked himself to a frazzle.

    Then there is Job.....the greatest wealth and health preacher in the whole bible.

    The devil will give you 10,000 reasons why God does not heal, God only gives one. It is His will to heal.
    One lavished upon in the Beloved
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?u=10603

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    Silver Member Totton Linnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    Was it Gods will that Paul suffer a 'thorn" in his flesh?

    Do you think Timothy was rebelling against God by taking the advice of taking a little wine for his frequent infirmities of the stomach?

    Did Timothy not have enough faith?

    Was it Gods will that Timothy be sick so often?
    Oh yes Timmy had a little tummy ache....no need to worry a little wine will do the trick.

    I did not say that taking medicine was rebellion to one who believes in healing...but if one believes that their sickness is from God, they should bear that sickness patiently as a gift of love to teach them humility or whatever it is.

    What nonsense people are prepared to believe.

    Listen I ain't going to wrangle with this if you want to believe as you do it is your affair. I believe "Jesus Christ the same, yesterday and today and forever."

    God didn't change, the church changed.
    One lavished upon in the Beloved
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    This is where all hearts belong to God.
    If we are human we are frail and if we are frail we hope God is good and is love. Thank you Lord that You are good and You are love.

    Maybe the church has changed. For the less.
    I don't know.
    Paul did have a beloved physician travel with him which may imply Timothy's first duty was to care for a frail ferocious spirited Apostle who was burning his candle at both ends? I don't know. And Paul did ask The Lord to remove whatever was plaguing him? Did he ask three times? Then something is proven to me there. He knew God does heal.
    He wouldn't have asked otherwise. But the Lord did not. At least not then. He is going to heal all of us and get rid of death and He is going to make up for every tear, right?
    But it is true till then The Bible says anoint and have the elders pray.
    Because God heals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    Raise a dead guy, win yourself a free house. Think of how long you could get by communaly, since you claim that is how you live.

    You are presenting the problem, Nick.
    As a believer you are setting up a boundary you think will never be be crossed.

    So if it is crossed by the devil will you worship the beast?
    In spite of Tot talking about if you believe you will see, which I have to think and pray about,
    you are saying IF you see you will believe. (Though perhaps you think you do not believe that?)

    We must test the spirits. We must figure out what we will use to test.
    Is raising the dead going to do it for you?

    Jesus raised the dead and they killed Him.
    Why not hold that in mind?
    Raising the dead is not going to do it then.

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    TOL Legend Angel4Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    Yes you have found two gnats and one of them is a sorry one but the camel in the corner you overlook.....the page after page testimony that God is Healer.

    What about ol' Epaphroditus? I think that is his name, he was sick....ah but God had mercy on him so that spoils your case....he was sick because he worked himself to a frazzle.

    Then there is Job.....the greatest wealth and health preacher in the whole bible.

    The devil will give you 10,000 reasons why God does not heal, God only gives one. It is His will to heal.
    Job is a health and wealth preacher? Since when?

    Epaphroditus recovered by resting.

    Neither case shows a miraculous healing of a limb or raising the dead.

    You also made the claim that God heals ALL the sick - then when you are given examples, you claim those are nothing more then gnats????

    Obviously God does not heal all the sick, or Paul would have been healed and Timothy wouldnt need medicine.

    You also claimed if one takes medicine for anything they do not trust God.

    Show us how Timothy didn't trust God since he was using wine as medicine and how Paul didn't trust God since he suggested the medicine.

    "Around the country, progressive bullies have attacked Christians for daring to put their faith ahead of the pet causes of those who feign compassion while destroying life-giving liberties. What we are seeing is a scorched-earth, take-no-prisoners approach as the wildfire burns across our land. It is not enough that Christians be quiet. Christians must be silenced and punished. Their faith cannot be respected. Legislation that ensures people are free to live and work according to their faith without fear of being punished by government must be stopped and decried as discrimination...There is one key reason that those on the Left must force their beliefs on the rest of us: if they didn't force their craziness on us, we would never embrace it." ~Erick Erickson
    Proverbs 3:5-8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    Oh yes Timmy had a little tummy ache....no need to worry a little wine will do the trick.
    Frequent infirmaries and a little tummy ache is about the difference between a slight pain in your side and appendicitis.

    Its easier to make light of something in Gods word though than to admit your own error?

    I did not say that taking medicine was rebellion to one who believes in healing...but if one believes that their sickness is from God, they should bear that sickness patiently as a gift of love to teach them humility or whatever it is.

    Thats not true. You said if one uses medicine- that they do not trust God. Now youve changed it to "only those who believe in faith healing are not in rebellion when THEY use medicine".

    Her is a reminder of a couple things you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    ... He healed all who were sick....

    It is best if they go on believing that sickness is God's will for them and continue to rebel against God's will by taking medicine.
    Show me in scripture where it says anything remotely to that effect.


    What nonsense people are prepared to believe.
    Yes, what you said is a perfect example of that.

    Listen I ain't going to wrangle with this if you want to believe as you do it is your affair. I believe "Jesus Christ the same, yesterday and today and forever."

    God didn't change, the church changed.
    What you are telling me is not consistent with scripture. So yes, ill believe what i do already since you havent shown me anything biblical to make it in my best interests to change my thoughts on it.

    "Around the country, progressive bullies have attacked Christians for daring to put their faith ahead of the pet causes of those who feign compassion while destroying life-giving liberties. What we are seeing is a scorched-earth, take-no-prisoners approach as the wildfire burns across our land. It is not enough that Christians be quiet. Christians must be silenced and punished. Their faith cannot be respected. Legislation that ensures people are free to live and work according to their faith without fear of being punished by government must be stopped and decried as discrimination...There is one key reason that those on the Left must force their beliefs on the rest of us: if they didn't force their craziness on us, we would never embrace it." ~Erick Erickson
    Proverbs 3:5-8

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  10. #98
    Silver Member Totton Linnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    Job is a health and wealth preacher? Since when?

    Epaphroditus recovered by resting.

    Neither case shows a miraculous healing of a limb or raising the dead.

    You also made the claim that God heals ALL the sick - then when you are given examples, you claim those are nothing more then gnats????

    Obviously God does not heal all the sick, or Paul would have been healed and Timothy wouldnt need medicine.

    You also claimed if one takes medicine for anything they do not trust God.

    Show us how Timothy didn't trust God since he was using wine as medicine and how Paul didn't trust God since he suggested the medicine.
    *
    Paul said God had mercy on ol' 'Paphy and upon Paul himself by restoring him to Paul.

    I said no such thing, I take medicine, quite obviously Timmy's tummy trouble was something which wine remedied, God provides wine and He provides other remedies so all healing whether direct or indirect come from Him.

    What I DID say is that if you have swallowed the devil's line that God has sent sickness to you then you should not try to alleviate it through medicine...that would be to rebel against God who you suppose has sent the sickness. See how the devil has gotten you so hooked that you not only strain and wrangle scriptures but my words too.

    Sure Job is the greatest health and wealth preacher in the bible...read the book, see how that while God hedged him around he was the most prosperous man in all the earth, when God removed His hedge Satan [oh... it was the devil] was able to smote Job with boils.

    People believes such lies, for the devil teaches them that God was trying to teach Job not to be self righteous.

    Job was not self righteous for God Himself declared "have you seen Job how that there is none like him in all the earth who loves God and escheweth evil?"

    Satan sneered "He only loves You because You hedge him about with blessings...it is the blessings Job loves"

    That was the test...do we love God to be blest? or are we blest because we love God?" it was a test of Job's faith and integrity and he came through with flying colours for God rebuked his accusers and said "you have not spoken what is right about Me as My servant Job has"

    Then God blessed Job TWICE as much as he was blessed before.

    Job PROVES that if we love God He will put an hedge about us, he PROVED it is Satan who is the sole architect of ALL man's sorrow and woe.

    You say God allowed it and I say in kindness my friend that if God is ever able to say of YOU or ME "she is perfect" He may allow us to be so tested.

    James says we must learn from Job's patience WHAT? that God is kind and compassionate, that is the lesson of Job.

    I will tell you something, in kindness I say it.

    God is fed up with His children putting bitter for sweet, for saying evil is good. For blaming God for what the devil does.

    If you want to know what God's will is in any matter LOOK, LOOK TO JESUS. He is the full expression of what God's will is, there will never be a greater expression...and He healed EVERY SINGLE person who came to Him with faith.

    If He has not changed then who has? if you can believe that Christ ever sent a sinner away unforgiven who came to Him sincerely and in truth the you can believe he will send the sick one away who comes believing.

    Unbelief will get you stitch. Unbelief is the only barrier for God insists upon faith WHY? because people may otherwise worry whether their healing or whatever blessing truly came from God.....when it comes through faith in Jesus you are certain. From this you can understand why so many are sick and who die before their years are up.

    But the church is not set up to minister this blessing it is a function of the body of Christ [not some white suited televangelist] it must come from the congregation and the gifts are LOCKED UP in the congregation who only go to listen to the pastor's sermon and sing a few hymns.

    This message would require a new reformation, this time of the ministry, to implement.
    One lavished upon in the Beloved
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?u=10603

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    Tot,
    In so many ways this is a fantastic post.
    I would rep it but can't yet.
    But I would also like to interact with it - faith to faith - if that is allowed?
    I hope so.

    I have tried to understand how something like sickness works.

    For me, and I could be wrong,
    a certain amount has to happen because we are living before the last enemy is dealt with.
    We are living in a creation that moans and groans until something good happens..
    So theoretically that seems to be the boat humans and all creatures are in.

    Next is Job and what that account reveals - or does not explain - since both are true.

    Imo, this account makes even the curse in the garden not look like God's will but more like a built in consequence because God is perfect or there are rules or something, I dunno.

    Some have said the devil was disappointed that he did not successfully wipe out mankind all together with all of that, as if he did not really understand the rules so well after all.

    And then there is this:
    Luke 17:1-3
    1 He said to His disciples, “It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come!
    2 It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble.
    3 Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

    Now I don't want to put number three up there but felt I had to.
    However, the message I am working with is Luke repeating The Lord about stumbling blocks. They do not sound like God's will there.

    But on the other side of the coin there are verses that say God, like our human father, does use things to discipline us. I don't want to look them up. But we admit they exist right? Whatever they really mean, I dunno.
    And lastly since Paul said something about God's grace being sufficient for him - may I say Paul was not being disciplined nor was it contrary to God's will for him to have the thorn in the flesh, whatever that thorn was... Because Paul really had surpassingly great visions. He was out of our ballpark because of them. He would have been the helium balloon looking down on the rest of us - trying to tell us things.
    But I wonder if this unfortunate thing didn't help him not be that way.
    Where he no longer lived by faith like we do in some things - he lived by grace like we do and had to keep his faith in that, like we do.

    And post script to all this - sickness/ healing is such a personal
    thing should it be listed here as part of the spiritual gifts being debated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    *

    see post

  12. #100
    Silver Member Totton Linnet's Avatar
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    Dear Rainee

    First we have to be honest and hold up our hands and say we do not have all the answers, none of us has complete knowledge and wisdom, I say in reference to me not to you.

    I do have some.

    It is impossible to recieve anything from God except through faith, God demands faith. You have to KNOW what God's will is in a matter before you can genuinely have faith. The gospel is the revelation of God's will. If we come to God upon any other basis we are on sandy soil. This is for our protection, if we come in faith to God's revealed will we can be assured in our souls that what we asked for in Jesu's name is the thing we recieved. We will never worry that perhaps we recieved from another source.

    There are 2 revelations of God's will for man, 1 is the garden, there was no sickness or disease in the garden of Eden, no sorrow, no pain or poverty. That is God's will for man when He created him.
    The second revelation of God's will for man is even greater and more excellent. It is the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the express image of the invisible God, He said "I came not to do Mine own will but the will of Him that sent Me."

    All that Jesus did then is God's will for man. It is revealed, there is no need to question it.

    Jesus healed EVERY single one who presented himself with faith, nobody was ever turned away. Matthew says "this was to fulfil what was spoken by Isaiah the prophet "Himself bore our diseases and carried our sicknesses" This links healing just as firmly to the atonement that Jesus made for us on the cross as forgiveness. It is impossible to say that "Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree..." is the infallible word of God but that "Himself bore our diseases and carried our sicknesses" is not also the infallible word of God.

    Either God's word is infallible...ALL of it or it is not, if you cannot be certain that He bore our sicknesses then neither can you be sure that He bare our sins. To deny it therefore is to reject the infallibility of God's word.

    But preachers do not preach it or they preach it uncertainly, Isaiah said "surely" but preachers are not sure. They do not preach with faith so people cannot recieve with faith. People are kept wavering, tossed about upon the waves of human reasoning [I was about to say the devil's deception] Preacher are CERTAIN that He bore our sin, there is never a dispute about that.

    This truth has to be birthed in us.

    Someone will say but people get sick, I will say christians also fall into sin, it is not God's will that we backslide into sin, it is not God's will that we succomb to sickness.

    I do not accept that Paul's thorn in the flesh was sickness. see my earlier response.
    One lavished upon in the Beloved
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?u=10603

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    Silver Member Totton Linnet's Avatar
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    Rainee asks should healing be listed as a gift to be debated on this topic?

    In the sense that it is a benefit of the atonement hand in hand with forgiveness I understand her point but how are any of the benefits of the gospel to be dispensed?

    Jesus dispensed them in Person by the working of the Holy Ghost, His ministry was in the supernatural gifts of word of knowledge, word of wisdom,prophecy, healing, miracles and administration.

    After He ascended into heaven the Holy Spirit had no body to dispense the blessings of the gospel through. After pentecost He did and you see all the gifts and ministry of the Lord Jesus being done through the members of His body the church at Jerusalem.

    The church is the assembly of God's people. Wherever Paul went and preached he set up everywhere an assembly of saved ones to operate as the body of Christ in that community. We have a rare glimpse of one of these assemblies at Corinth they are functioning and ministering in exactly the same way as the assembly did at Jerusalem and as Jesus did in Person in Galilee.

    The Holy Spirit ministered through the assembly ar Corinth in the same way as He ministered at Jerusalem, of COURSE setting up an assembly among former heathens newly saved and brought into a knowledge of God for the first time was always going to be a tougher call than among the Jews, calling for special wisdom. This was the dispensation given to Paul.

    But the working of the Holy Spirit through this assembly or body of Christ was the SAME. No one person in the assembly had all the gifts and ministry that Christ had, no one person is the body of Christ but we are each members of His body it is as we meet together we act as the body of Christ.

    Most assemblies today meet together to listen to a one man ministry, to hear him preach a nice sermon, to sing a few hymns......where is the room for the Holy Spirit to function among the assembly? He is denied His leadership...He has been usurped.

    This happened early on in the church, the church split between the "clergy" and the "laity" THAT is why the gifts ceased. The church as set up by Paul by the wisdom given Him by the Holy Spirit had changed.

    The reformation was a great leap forward in doctrine only....the ministry remained the same.
    One lavished upon in the Beloved
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    Over 5000 post club oatmeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainee View Post
    I think the Bible says believers have gifts.
    They do not have to be fancy gifts to serve the body I guess, but
    I personally think it says or implies that Paul was irritated by speaking in tongues and would have preferred not one believer did it any more.
    Can anyone show me where he is not complaining about it or talking negatively?

    On the other hand I think he wanted every believer to prophesy. Every believer.

    From there I could suspect that every Christian could to some extent
    prophesy though it may not actually come about.
    And perhaps not one can speak in tongues anymore.

    However, the Word says signs and miracle will be done by the other side
    and the world will follow after, right?
    I personally think it says or implies that Paul was irritated by speaking in tongues and would have preferred not one believer did it any more.
    If Paul was irritated, it was with the misuse of speaking in tongues, not speaking in tongues itself.

    We can be irritated with the misuse of scripture, but we are not advocating getting rid of our Bibles? EH?

    I Corinthians 14:5,18,39 and other places, make it clear that Paul advocated speaking in tongues.

    oatmeal
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    Good answer. Here is mine.
    Thanks,

    So then you will take my standing "Pentecostal" challenge? There are no gifts of the Holy Spirit today. Those were a taste of things to come. Unless you can heal the maimed and raise the dead. The deal is, raise the dead, take my house.
    Since I am not a Pentecostal, you are barking up the wrong tree.

    When you speak of gifts, are you referring to what scripture refers to as manifestations?

    I Corinthians 12:7-11

    If so, it would be more appropriate to call them what the word of God calls them.

    Namely, manifestations, or more correctly the manifestation.

    Which, by the way is given to every man to profit withal.

    All believers have all nine, but all are a manifestation of the God given ability

    Ie, Acts 2:4

    the apostles were filled then they began to speak in tongues.

    they needed to be filled first with the ability, then they could do the works that the ability gave them to do.

    oatmeal
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGodInChrist View Post
    I see spiritual gifts in operation on a relatively common basis, especially those in 1 Cor. 12 as well as others. However, they need to always be harnassed by the Word of God to avoid finaticism, and its good to keep in remembrance that signs are suppose to follow beleivers and not beleivers following signs.
    Good call
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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    Where does scripture say they are not for today?
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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