ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

RobE · Jul 21, 2006

Bacon said:
Answer which translation you cite, and then show me any of your positions that you still think are vindicated and I will address them. Until you answer that I see no reason to respond further, since there is no mystery in why you reach such wrong conclusions operating from such a faulty premise.

Well, I reviewed the my post and I would say that the quotes in it were from the NIV. If you would prefer the Douay-Rheims version, I have one sitting on my shelf, but would prefer the New American Standard Bible which is accessible on the internet(If you refuse the NIV translation outright)

I think all my positions were vindicated or I wouldn't have made them; and, I refuse to go back and re-post because you insist upon it. Translations carry the essential truths foreward even though there are semantical errors which arise. There are many words which don't translate well and of the English versions its my opinion that the most effort was put into translating by Zondervan and the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church's translation would be extremely telling because 2 billion Christians belong to it.

Anyway,
Rob

Bacon · Jul 21, 2006

Catholic Chuch

Catholic Chuch

RobE said:
...The Catholic Church's translation would be extremely telling because 2 billion Christians belong to it.

The NIV? Well then, I am impressed by how corrupt it is! Wow!

Two billion current Catholics? That is more than the Muslim population of 1.5 billion, yes? So 2 out of every 4.5 people is a Roman Catholic? This is a surprising, and if true, disturbing statistic. What source gives this number?

But, truth is never a question of popularity.

So I take it that you consider yourself a faithful Roman Catholic? Personally, I find the institution grotesque.

RobE · Jul 21, 2006

Bacon said:
The NIV? Well then, I am impressed by how corrupt it is! Wow!

Two billion current Catholics? That is more than the Muslim population of 1.5 billion, yes? So 2 out of every 4.5 people is a Roman Catholic? This is a surprising, and if true, disturbing statistic. What source gives this number?

But, truth is never a question of popularity.

So I take it that you consider yourself a faithful Roman Catholic? Personally, I find the institution grotesque.

No, I'm not a Roman Catholic. Thanks for being substantive though. It's rare that someone brings such knowledge and information to the table. Just answer the questions.

Rob

Bacon · Jul 21, 2006

NIV, achieving perfection

NIV, achieving perfection

RobE said:
No, I'm not a Roman Catholic. Thanks for being substantive though. It's rare that someone brings such knowledge and information to the table. Just answer the questions.

Rob

Thanks for the encouraging words.

The NIV has a good deal of spin but I guess, but it doesn't deserve the "quotes" around the word "translation." It is a legitimate translation, so I won't spurn it. I'll point out the discrepancies with the Greek, though, as appropriate.

You said:

****
Jesus was a "spirit man" if you want to accept that Jesus was fully God, and Jesus was fully man. I mis-stated when I said that 'Jesus was a spiritual man, which was given a physical body'. My statement should have been that God is Spirit and He became fully Man by putting on a physical body and being born.
He certainly wasn't just a man which attained.....this was impossible as the scripture puts forward.
Hebrews 7:11If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?
****

Does that mean that you understand Jesus to have been the one true god who transformed himself into a god-man? I'm confused. Are you a trinitarian? Or do you hold that Jesus was Jehovah?

I did not say that Jesus "attained godhood." I hold that Jesus was a man, generated by the god, a sinner, and that he became perfect by dying to sin. He is still entirely a man and is not and never will be the god, but rather sits at the god's right hand (not that he is always sitting down, but that that is his office).

Note that this is precisely what Hebrews says:

Hebrews 5:
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being ***made perfect***, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The "things which he suffered" were the hours of his death, since he had a rather cushy life.

And by the way, his death was not at the limits of human suffering. He had a rather easy life and compared to many, many people, a relatively easy death. But, the net effect is that, having died, he became free from sin, and free from death. This was the way he came to be perfect - not by being divine.

Clete · Jul 21, 2006

Jesus claimed to be God you idiot! He was either divine or He was a totally nut job.

Bacon · Jul 21, 2006

Clete weighs in

Clete weighs in

Clete said:
Jesus claimed to be God you idiot! He was either divine or He was a totally nut job.

Hi Clete. I could not help noticing your decorated status on this list. I must either assume that your other posts are a bit more dignified and meritorious or that this list esteems...umm..well, whatever you call the contribution above. (In Castellano, you call it "porqueria.").

Ok, please, if you would be so kind, tell me where in scripture Jesus made this claim.

Thanks so much!

:dizzy:

godrulz · Jul 22, 2006

Bacon said:
Hi Clete. I could not help noticing your decorated status on this list. I must either assume that your other posts are a bit more dignified and meritorious or that this list esteems...umm..well, whatever you call the contribution above. (In Castellano, you call it "porqueria.").

Ok, please, if you would be so kind, tell me where in scripture Jesus made this claim.

Thanks so much!

:dizzy:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16468

An incomplete start...there are about 5 Arian proof texts with good refutations compared to about 40 verses that affirm the Deity of Christ, leading to a triune understanding of God.

Your bacon will be fried if you reject this salvific truth. A counterfeit Christ is worthless (2 Cor. 11:4; Gal. 1:6-10).

Clete · Jul 22, 2006

Bacon said:
Hi Clete. I could not help noticing your decorated status on this list. I must either assume that your other posts are a bit more dignified and meritorious or that this list esteems...umm..well, whatever you call the contribution above. (In Castellano, you call it "porqueria.").

My contribution was measured in accordance with that which I was responding too. Your position is so absurd that a detailed response would foolishly lend credence to it that is doesn't deserve.

Ok, please, if you would be so kind, tell me where in scripture Jesus made this claim.

Thanks so much!

:dizzy:

I want you to know that I seriously considered not do this because again the notion that He didn't is so ludicrous that to even dignify it with a direct response feels a kin to dunking one's head in the sewer to pull out a gold coin with your teeth. It's hardly worth doing! But, for the sake of those who are reading this that I am unaware of and that you may have accidentally influenced, here goes nothing...

The WHOLE book of John.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us[/B], and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!{Note here that Jesus intentionally took for Himself what He knew the Jews and later the Sanhedrin would immediately recognize as the name of God Himself}"

Luke 22:70 Then they all said, “Are You then the Son of God?”
So He said to them, “You rightly say that I am.”
71 And they said, “What further testimony do we need? For we have heard it ourselves from His own mouth.”

Mark 14: 61 ...Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?”
62 Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
63 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “What further need do we have of witnesses? 64 You have heard the blasphemy! What do you think?”
And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.

Matthew 26:63 ...And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”
64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

I say it again. Jesus was either divine or He was a class A crackpot.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Philetus · Jul 22, 2006

Clete said:
My contribution was measured in accordance with that which I was responding too. Your position is so absurd that a detailed response would foolishly lend credence to it that is doesn't deserve.

I want you to know that I seriously considered not do this because again the notion that He didn't is so ludicrous that to even dignify it with a direct response feels a kin to dunking one's head in the sewer to pull out a gold coin with your teeth. It's hardly worth doing! But, for the sake of those who are reading this that I am unaware of and that you may have accidentally influenced, here goes nothing...

The WHOLE book of John.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us[/B], and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!{Note here that Jesus intentionally took for Himself what He knew the Jews and later the Sanhedrin would immediately recognize as the name of God Himself}"

Luke 22:70 Then they all said, “Are You then the Son of God?”
So He said to them, “You rightly say that I am.”
71 And they said, “What further testimony do we need? For we have heard it ourselves from His own mouth.”

Mark 14: 61 ...Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?”
62 Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
63 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “What further need do we have of witnesses? 64 You have heard the blasphemy! What do you think?”
And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.

Matthew 26:63 ...And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”
64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

I say it again. Jesus was either divine or He was a class A crackpot.

Resting in Him,
Clete

:first:
And that is why Clete gets the big bucks! (all the ribons)
By the way, like most translations, NIV is the Nearly Infallible Version. Jesus is the Infallible Word!

Quote Clete: "that you may have accidentally influenced",
Not a snowball's chance in a sewer, but you can keep the coin for your trouble.
Don't forget to brush. :rotfl:

Thanks Clete and Godrulz!

Philetus · Jul 22, 2006

godrulz said:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16468

An incomplete start...there are about 5 Arian proof texts with good refutations compared to about 40 verses that affirm the Deity of Christ, leading to a triune understanding of God.

Your bacon will be fried if you reject this salvific truth. A counterfeit Christ is worthless (2 Cor. 11:4; Gal. 1:6-10).

Godrulz,
Your treasures are laid up in heaven where sewers can't touch em!
(brush anyway)

Jesus is Lord,
Philetus

Bacon · Jul 22, 2006

Did Jesus claim to be the god? No.

Did Jesus claim to be the god? No.

I asked Clete where Jesus claimed to be the god. His response begins:

"The WHOLE book of John."

Well, this is absurd. The book of John does not contain even a single claim by Jesus to be the god. He never says "I am the god." Never. Not once. So Clete has misrepresented John AND Jesus.

Clete quotes the following to show that Jesus claimed to be the god:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us[/B], and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Again, Jesus is not even speaking in this passage. Hello?

The he cites this:
John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!{Note here that Jesus intentionally took for Himself what He knew the Jews and later the Sanhedrin would immediately recognize as the name of God Himself}"

Note that Jesus does not say "I am the god" but rather the very common Greek phrase "I am."

Also note that the Greek term from Ex 3:14 is not "I am" (EGO EIMI) but rather "the one being" ('hO WN). So this text has no relationship whatsoever to Ex 3:14.

Is this the "Nearly Infallible Version" by any chance? Not near enough. The phrase "was born" is a single word in the Greek: the aorist infinitive of GINOMAI. This should be translated "comes to be" - a future event.

Word order in the Greek does not mean the same thing as it does in English. The words "I am" are at the end of the sentence, but in Greek, that serves to *de-emphasize* rather than emphasize the words. The words brought to the front of the sentence should receive the greater emphasis. Hence, a more proper translation of this sentence would be:

"I am *before* Abraham comes to be."

Indeed this would be a very offensive assertion to a Jew. But it is NOT a claim to be the god. In fact, it would have been just as true to say "You are (to the other Jews there) before Abraham comes to be."

Clete goes on:
Luke 22:70 Then they all said, “Are You then the Son of God?”
So He said to them, “You rightly say that I am.”
71 And they said, “What further testimony do we need? For we have heard it ourselves from His own mouth.”

Um... This verse clearly is a claim to royalty, not to divinity. It is only in your diseased imagination that this is a claim to be the god. Also note that the word "rightly" is added by the translators. (Which version?) And by the way, to show how common the phrase "I am" is, this sentence also ends with the same phrase Greek phrase "EGW EIMI."

Please note that if EGW EIMI were a claim to divinity and the divine name, the phrase would be objectionable, since the Jews considered uttering the divine name as scary stuff. Yet we have the man born blind saying:

Diaglot
Joh 9:9 Others said: That this is. Others but: That like him it is. He said: That I am.

So also Paul, would surely be claiming divinity and be taking the lord's name in vain if he uttered the phrase in this context:

Diaglot
1Co 15:10 By favor but of God I am what I am; and the favor of him that to me, not vain was made, but more abundantly of them all I labored; not I but, but the favor of the God that with me.)

So, though Philetus is slobbering with admiration for your keen observation, it is a completely specious argument.

Clete goes on!
Mark 14: 61 ...Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?”
62 Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
63 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “What further need do we have of witnesses? 64 You have heard the blasphemy! What do you think?”
And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.

Clete. The question related to his being the anointed. The high priest uses a double accusative to show that this equates to another royal term, "son of the blessed." (Note the avoidence of even the word g-d.) Repeat after me: "son of." Son of is proof positive that Jesus is not himself the Blessed. That is why he rebukes those who call him good. Jesus is just a man, a sinner.

Repeat after me "at the right hand of..." - again - proof positive that Jesus does not claim to be the god himself. The "right hand" is a dependent position.

Clete, still grabbing at straws, says:
Matthew 26:63 ...And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”
64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Son of man, right hand of... - these don't make anyone the god:

Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Except for the action of the god, Jesus would have been the corpse of a dead sinner:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Clete summarizes:
I say it again. Jesus was either divine or He was a class A crackpot.

Clete, you are the crackpot. Jesus never made the claim.

Clete · Jul 22, 2006

pigbutt said:
Clete quotes the following to show that Jesus claimed to be the god:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us[/B], and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Again, Jesus is not even speaking in this passage. Hello?

This section of pigbutt's was an expected response and shows his intentional intellectual dishonesty and reveals his actual intent.

The passage was written by the exact same guy who wrote John 5:58. If the truth of John 1:1 is in question then on what basis do you accept the truth of anything else written in the book of John which is attributed to Jesus? Or conversely if you accept that John 5:58 is true and conveys an accurate record of Jesus' own words then on what basis do you reject the same authors claim that Jesus was the Word who was God and who become flesh and dwelt among us?

This is why I cited the whole book of John and quoted its opening passage. The entire theme of the book of John is the deity of Jesus. That's what the book is about and John begins his book the way he does so that dorks like you would have to be intentionally stupid, poor, blind and naked in order to miss the point.

So answer the question.

Why is John telling the truth in 8:58 and not telling the truth in 1:1?

I cannot wait to hear what sort of nonsense you come up with on this one!

Resting in Him,
Clete

Bacon · Jul 22, 2006

Did Jesus claim to be the god? No.

Did Jesus claim to be the god? No.

Clete said:
...This is why I cited the whole book of John and quoted its opening passage. The entire theme of the book of John is the deity of Jesus. That's what the book is about and John begins his book the way he does so that dorks like you would have to be intentionally stupid, poor, blind and naked in order to miss the point.
So answer the question.
Why is John telling the truth in 8:58 and not telling the truth in 1:1?
I cannot wait to hear what sort of nonsense you come up with on this one!...Clete

Clete, your assertion was that "Jesus claimed to be God." Where in John 1 does Jesus make this claim?

The issue is not "did John claim that Jesus was God" nor "did Athanasius claim that Jesus was God" nor "does the Pope claim that Jesus was God" nor "do good, upstanding medal winning guys with straight teeth claim that Jesus was God" but rather "did Jesus claim that he was God." Are you capable of understanding the distinction?

If so, say "Yes, I realize that John 1 is not an example of Jesus claiming to be God."

If no, please say "Oh yeah?!"

Now, it is clear that your posts are venemous, and void of intelligence, so I must assume that Philetus and the others on this list have heaped praise on you because you are championing the party line.

You obviously have nothing to say but insults and irrelevant texts, so I'm afraid I have no more to say to you.

godrulz · Jul 22, 2006

John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, reveals who Jesus is in John 1 (GOD ALMIGHTY). Jesus made this claim Himself elsewhere in John. His statements as a Jew were understood by His audience of other Jews. They did not misunderstand His claims of Deity, but rejected them as false. We are not Jews, so tend to miss the impact of His claims (Son of God is a claim to equality; doing the Father's works was a claim to equality as is saying that He is one with the Father). They went to stone Him for blasphemy, that a mere man claimed to be God. This was a truth claim, but they rejected it. As Gentiles, we do not understand His claims as clearly. This is why John added commentary for his Greekish audience to explain what Jesus meant (e.g. Jn. 5:18 is a commentary for our understanding since we might miss the point that the Jews did not).

Clete · Jul 22, 2006

Bacon said:
You obviously have nothing to say but insults and irrelevant texts, so I'm afraid I have no more to say to you.

In other words, "I have no answer to your question that exposed my dishonesty and deception."

I do indeed hate you pigbutt and the insults are deserved but that is beside the point as I did in fact respond substantively to your repigbuttal.

Will you answer the question, which was in direct response to your rebutal of my argument or not?

Resting in Him,
Clete

godrulz · Jul 22, 2006

John was written to believers to reveal the Son of God (this title was understood as equality with God by Jews...it is a direct claim to Deity). John 1:1 properly exegeted supports the Deity of Christ and the triune nature of God.

John 20:28 Thomas knew who Jesus was. He used the same grammar as in Psalms (LXX) about YHWH (the Lord of me; the God of me). Jesus, the great Rabbi, should have rebuked Thomas if He was not the God of the Jews. Instead, He commended him and received his declaration as worship (men and angels are not worshipped according to the OT and Revelation).

Bacon · Jul 22, 2006

godrulz is back...still trying to prop up the dogma

godrulz is back...still trying to prop up the dogma

godrulz said:
John was written to believers to reveal the Son of God (this title was understood as equality with God by Jews...it is a direct claim to Deity). John 1:1 properly exegeted supports the Deity of Christ and the triune nature of God.

John 20:28 Thomas knew who Jesus was. He used the same grammar as in Psalms (LXX) about YHWH (the Lord of me; the God of me). Jesus, the great Rabbi, should have rebuked Thomas if He was not the God of the Jews. Instead, He commended him and received his declaration as worship (men and angels are not worshipped according to the OT and Revelation).

"Son of God" = "God"? So, in your book, how many gods are there? Or how many persons in the multiple personality deity?:

Ge 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Ge 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John 1:1 does not mention or speak of Jesus. It speaks of the word of the god that was present "in the beginning" that accompanied the god in the making of the sky and the land:

Ge 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Ge 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Ge 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

It was through this god-utterance that everything was made, including the life of Jesus:

My own translation:
Joh 1:4 By the instrument of it [the god-utterance] was a life; and the life was the light of men.

In your understanding, godrulz, who is the "light of men" referred to in John 1:4? Was it not Jesus? The life that was generated by the god-utterance? And the one in whom the god-utterance dwelled?

Jesus was not the word of the god or else he could speak of himself. Rather the father was speaking his word by the life of Jesus:

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? ***the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself**: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Simply put, Jesus was the son of the god, the anointed of the god, the servant of the god. He worshipped the god, prayed to the god and trusted in the god. In his prayer he called the father "the one true god." He rebuked those who even called him good - for that was the designation reserved only for the god.

Jesus did not receive worship. Thomas was not addressing Jesus when he spontaneously exclaimed "My lord and my god" but found himself vocal with worship of the father because of the resurection of Jesus.

Jesus had just told Thomas who his and his own god was:

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and ***to my God, and your God***.

Jesus refuses worship in Revelation 22:

6 ¶ And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Bacon · Jul 22, 2006

For Clete and his fellow allies From Bacon's wife

For Clete and his fellow allies From Bacon's wife

This is a reply to your audacious responses to my husband, Bill. I am so incredibly offended by the horrible verbal abuse that you are slinging at him. And you guys call yourselves "men of God"? Bill does not even claim to be a christian and he behaves with so much more integrity and maturity than you men. To see grown men behaving in such a juvenile manner really makes me stop and take pause.

I wonder, are you guys considered to be some sort of "pillar of Godliness" in your respective churches? I feel sorry for your congregations and your wives ( if indeed there are any women out there that will have you ).

Can you not just answer my husbands questions with less abuse and maybe just a little more integrity, honesty, and maturity?

Connie

godrulz · Jul 22, 2006

Bacon said:
This is a reply to your audacious responses to my husband, Bill. I am so incredibly offended by the horrible verbal abuse that you are slinging at him. And you guys call yourselves "men of God"? Bill does not even claim to be a christian and he behaves with so much more integrity and maturity than you men. To see grown men behaving in such a juvenile manner really makes me stop and take pause.

I wonder, are you guys considered to be some sort of "pillar of Godliness" in your respective churches? I feel sorry for your congregations and your wives ( if indeed there are any women out there that will have you ).

Can you not just answer my husbands questions with less abuse and maybe just a little more integrity, honesty, and maturity?

Connie

He seems to dish it out, but cannot take it. He is attacking the Christian faith, once for all entrusted to the saints. His exegesis is sloppy and his views are heretical.

The goal is to speak the truth in love. I apologize if he feels there are ad hominem attacks, but we are also dealing with his arguments.

Bacon · Jul 22, 2006

To the allies from Connie

To the allies from Connie

godrulz said:
He seems to dish it out, but cannot take it. He is attacking the Christian faith, once for all entrusted to the saints. His exegesis is sloppy and his views are heretical.

The goal is to speak the truth in love. I apologize if he feels there are ad hominem attacks, but we are also dealing with his arguments.

"Pigsbutt?" "Dork?" "Idiot?" Ad Hominem?? Nah. Obviously you are just speaking the truth in love.

Connie

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