ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

godrulz,

Even the disciples could fall away and be lost according to John 15.

John 15:1-12 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone [of the eleven apostles] does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Bob Hill

RobE said:

Here's my answer to God's futility:

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How is what I said an answer to my question?

God is not futile, period. Do you agree?

I then tried to answer your question further by telling you why God would make salvation available when He knew not all would avail themselves.....

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Of course He knew not everyone would. The question is whether He knew the who of it. And if He did not know the who, then to die for all, regardless, would not be futile. If He knew the who, then it would. And God is not futile.

To which you replied.....



Justice for all is not necessary for a judge to be good? So, in your opinion, Jesus would not die for those who would not avail themselves? Are you sure you believe this?

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Justice for all? Yes. Those who would not avail themsleves would get what they deserved, which is just.:duh:

You already agreed that Jesus died for all. You already agreed Jesus knew some would not avail themselves of His sacrifice? What difference would this answer make whether Jesus knew some would not avail themselves in general or specifically which ones would not?

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I have already answered this, above.

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Yet Open Theism claims that Adam might not sin; even though you would find Adam not sinning, eventually, a logical impossibility because of Adam's free will. See, it cuts both ways and you can't even see it. For Adam to be 'free' then sin would be in His future. Anyone who can make choices eventually makes a bad one unless He can foresee(accurately predict) the outcomes.

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Disobedience to God's commands might very well have been in his future, because of his free will. But it is also possible that it would have happened later than it did. Or maybe sooner. Or, perhaps, not at all. There are many factors and reasons thta could play into it.

Do you agree that if God had not given any rules that Adam would never have disobeyed them?

My question.........God is not stupid so why would God know we would sin; even though, He can't know something which is unknowable? Antinomy, Clete?

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The fact that we will disobey, or fall short, is knowable.:doh:

godrulz,

Baptism is another difference. We don’t have to be baptized in water. All we have to do is believe.
Acts 16:30,31 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

1 Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Under the ministry before God raised up the Apostle Paul, they had to be baptized to be saved.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

1 Pe 3:19-21 [Christ] went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us–baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh [which showed it was water baptism], but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Bob Hill

godrulz,


In contrast, the purpose of the mystery is love.
1 Ti 1:3-5 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 5 Now the purpose of the commandment charge is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith.

2 Ti 1:12-14 I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep my deposit until that Day. 13 Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.14 Keep that good thing which was committed to you the good deposit, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.

The big difference is life changing and shows us in this Dispensation of Grace, that salvation is all of grace and our belief.

The thing that will happen if people mix the two gospels, the gospel of grace and the gospel of the circumcision, is confusion. They will find so many contradictions in the Bible they will throw up their hands in frustration.

The Holy Spirit seals us right when we trust in Christ as our Savior. We cannot lose our salvation once we believe in Christ as our Savior.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

RobE said:

I'm sorry if you offended yourself, Clete. Let me try again......

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Can we just cut the sarcasm please? There is no need for it.

How accurate do you think God's 'predictions' are?

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How do you want me to answer this question. I would say very accurately. I'm not sure I understand the point of such a question. Even if it were perfectly, which it isn't, by the way, but even if it were, as long as it is still simply predictions and not foreKNOWLEDGE then my free will would remain intact.

Am I making myself clear at all about the difference between "predicting" and "knowing"? If not, please say so because it is a crucial issue and we won't make any progress until we get that straight.

Did your upbringing, friends, society, church, or any other outside influence cause you to behave in a certain way at any time? The choice is yours because you aren't compelled to do anything in your heart. We agree. Often times, though, we choose to do certain things because of our reaction to what we 'learned' or were influenced by earlier in our lives. Agree?

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We are in agreement here if and only if you can agree to the following...

"Necessarily (i.e. it is a logical necessity), for any human agent S, action A and time t, if S performs A freely at t, then the history of the world prior to t (including S's upbringing, friends, society, church or other outside influences), the laws of nature, and the actions of any other agent (including God) prior to and at t are jointly compatible with S's refraining from performing A freely."

Can you agree with that or not? If so, then you believe in free will.

Total Depravity crap? I personally believe man was created with and has basically a good nature unlike some others.

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Your comment could have come straight out of the mouth of Calvin himself. It sounds exactly like you were making the statement from a very decidedly Calvinistic stance, specifically referring to the doctrine of Total Depravity. If that is not what you were doing then ignore what I said.

All I was trying to say was Jesus already paid the price for your wrong decisions and nullified their effect.

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He nulified their effect as far as my punishment is concerned but my evil actions can still result in horrific damage to those around me and in fact can possibly contribute to someone's decision to reject God and thereby result in someone's eternal damnation.
I know it seem I'm picking nits here but we should be careful about what we say because ideas have very real consequences.

Redemption is the purpose and choice God's pointing us towards. Once the price is paid then that something(wrongdoing) becomes nothing. That's all I was getting at. You can't save yourself through your actions. You already believe this. Sorry you got so offended.

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You'll have to forgive me. It may be that I'm reading things into what you say that aren't really there because it seems you are being very casual about they way you word things. Which is fine but remember that I don't have the benefit of hearing you speak or watching your body language to catch your meaning. All I've got is the words on the page and when I get into these debates concerning principles of logic I tend to get rather picky about specific words and ideas because a small change in a phrase can make a huge difference later on when the idea is taken to it logical conclusion.

My point here was how do you know that He still intends to carry them out? If He doesn't then Jesus was either mistaken or misleading.

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What do you mean, how do I know?

We are talking about God here, are we not? If one cannot trust God what's the point of even discussing this whole issue? Let me ask you a question that you may have never thought about before. Why do you trust God? Is it because God cannot do other than what is good or because God will not do other than what is good?

The question I really want to know is How accurately can God predict things?

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I honestly don't know how to answer other than to say, very accurately. God has access to all of the available information that is knowable which pertains to any prediction He might want to make. And so just as the weather man can make better predictions about the weather with more information, God also can make a better informed and therefore more accurate prediction than would be possible for any other being. So God can be as accurate as it is possible to be, given the nature of His creation.

Maybe if you'll explain how it is relevant it will give me a clue on how to be more responsive.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Bob Hill said:

godrulz,

Even the disciples could fall away and be lost according to John 15.

John 15:1-12 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone [of the eleven apostles] does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Bob Hill

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Jesus said these words to give his disciples joy, not fear. Turning this into a warning we may be eternally lost destroys the intent of these words.

Christ differentiates between those cleaned (v.3) by the word and the branches taken away. There is no such thing as a disciple who is not cleaned by the word. The branches not cleaned are not disciples at all, and Jesus tells them that they are already clean to encourage them, not warn them that they may fall away. To say otherwise simply reverses the intent of His words. Cleaning and lifting is something the ANE vinedressers did to make the branches bear fruit. Discipleship is limited to those who abide in Christ. The burned branches are taken way and are not disciples. Those who abide in Christ bear fruit (v.5). All the branches taken away do not bear fruit. No believer bears no fruit. Fruitless branches are not believers. Fruit bearing is the only evidence of discipleship and the only evidence of salvation.

This is no different than wheat growing with tares in the same field. Wheat does not become tares; and tares do not become wheat. Jesus is alluding to the OT imagery of Israel as the vine and God as the vinedresser. Jesus is to the vine as the nation of Israel is in the OT and His Father is to the vinedresser. The objection is assuming that the fruitless branches are or rather were genuine converts. They can't be, because they are not washed and tended/pruned branches. All the fruitbearing branches here are washed. They abide because they are tended, their fruit bearing evidences this. They all persevere to the end, because they bear fruit. They bear fruit, because the Father Himself tends them.

Notice that the Father never tends to the dead branches. He gathers them up and they are burned. Arminians overlook this every time they use this objection. It cuts against their assertion that grace is equal for all persons. Why does the Father prune only the fruit bearing branches? Why does the Father only gather up the dead branches? Why does He never attend to them?” After all, if grace is equal for all as you say, then isn’t this text teaching they perish from God’s neglect? The Arminian doesn't say that people perish for lack of grace, but because of their own fruitlessness. The problem here is that the reason given for their fruitbearing is the grace of tending and pruning. God is not depicted as pruning them because they bear fruit; they bear fruit because they are pruned.(v.2). Those not pruned do not bear fruit and are cast away. If you believe that this is teaching that the disciples can fall away, then, according to the text, it is because of the Father's neglect of them, not their failure to abide of themselves. The text denies that they abide because of themselves, for Jesus says "apart from Me, you can do nothing." You are saying that they can do something, namely abide. In making this comment Jesus is saying that the reason the branches abide is because of Him and His Father's commitment to faithfully tend and prune them so that they bear fruit. Because of this, they abide, and are not gathered up.

The passage proves John 6 by stating that the Father who draws those He gives to Christ, who all, without exception come to Christ, whom He intends to raise on the last day. Now Christ adds another dimension. The Father will tend to them after Christ is physically gone from them, and He will cause them to bear fruit. This was true of the disciples; it is true of all believers. Jesus is the Vine. He is the antetype to the Old Testament vine of Israel. The text proves that there are tares among the wheat, but not that the wheat becomes tares.

godrulz

Bob Hill:

I agree that there is a different emphasis in Johannine, Petrine, and Pauline writings. I disagree that there are two Gospels. There are two covenants (OT/NT) and two target audiences for the one NT Gospel (Gal. 2).

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The Two Gospels
When questions surfaced in Galatia shortly after Paul had just been there, Paul got upset. He wrote them a letter that we call Galatians.

Gal 1:6-9 I’m amazed that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Eph 1:5 clearly states the security we members of the body of Christ have: “having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.”

When Israel rejected Christ, God raised up Paul with a different commission from the 12 Apostles. Their commission required baptism for salvation, as in Mk 16:15-18 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

In contrast, Paul’s commission did not include baptism.
1 Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

There was a different dispensation, that is, a different method of salvation. Peter and the eleven had the gospel of the circumcision. Paul had the gospel of the uncircumcision. The circumcision gospel was always associated with works for salvation. Paul’s gospel, according to Acts 16:31, was, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.”

Paul was given a whole new program called the dispensation of the Mystery, or the dispensation of Grace. Eph 3:1-9 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles; 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

Two gospels.
Paul had been given a different gospel by the resurrected Christ according to Gal 2:7-9 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for [eis] the apostleship of the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward [eis] the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to [eis] the Gentiles and they to [eis] the circumcised.

What can we do about the lack of knowledge about the gospel and the mystery? First, learn about the gospel of grace; then share it. If you're not saved by grace, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior.

Bob Hill

godrulz,

What gospel should we preach? Even though I have shown that Paul preached a gospel different from Peter's, others say they’re the same. So, let's check this out. What did Peter preach as the gospel in his first sermon on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2: 30-38 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: The LORD said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

For some reason, Peter doesn’t even mention the redemption Christ purchased on the cross. His sermon emphasized that Christ was the Messiah of Israel. That was his important message. Then, later, after Paul got saved on the road to Damascus, when Peter went to Cornelius in Acts 10:34-43 he “opened his mouth and said: ‘In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ; He is Lord of all; 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

As far as the method of salvation, Peter’s gospel was quite different from Paul’s. In Acts 2:37,38, when they heard his sermon, “they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, ‘Men and brethren, what shall we do?’ 38 Then Peter said to them, Here’s the method, ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’”

Later, when he wrote his first epistle to “the pilgrims of the Dispersion”, in 1 Pet 3:21, he wrote, “There is also an antitype which now saves us; baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Peter also admonished them to make their election sure by doing good works in 2 Pet 1:10. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And for those who did not make their election sure, there was no hope, for Peter wrote in 2 Pet 2:20, “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.”

In contrast, what did Paul preach as far as the gospel? In Acts 13:16-39, he started with the calling of Israel to King David. Then in verse 23 he said, “From this man’s seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior; Jesus; 24 after John had first preached, before His coming, the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 26 Men and brethren, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to you the word of this salvation has been sent. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.”

Simply put, the Philippian jailer in Acts 16:30-32 brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. In his epistles, he gave the same message of salvation. In Rom 3:21,22, he wrote, “But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference.” And the gospel in a nut shell is found in Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Bob Hill

godrulz,

As far as the method of salvation is concerned, in contrast to Peter’s “be even more diligent to make your call and election sure,” Paul wrote in 1 Cor 3:15, “If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”

Then, in contrast to the required works for salvation which Peter, James, and John taught, Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

And in Titus 3:4-7 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Can we know for sure who received the stewardship for today? Eph 3:1-9 says, “For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles; 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.” God raised up the Apostle Paul and gave him a brand new message. Then, what should we preach? Law, the kingdom gospel that was for the Jews, or the message of grace that is for this dispensation?

I think it is obvious. Preach the message of grace that is for this Dispensation of Grace.

Bob Hill

If we preached the water baptism for salvation that Peter preached on the day of Pentecost, we would be in error.

Those who belong to the Church of Christ believe you have to be water baptized to be saved. It is easy to see where they get that idea. Peter preached that on Pentecost. But, Paul never baptized for salvation.

Bob Hill

For RobE

For RobE

Hey RobE!

I have come out of the other form and got to looking around and found you here.

I saw this quote and HAD to reply

RobE said:

I was just wondering if ...... (1)I dropped a rock and (2)it fell to the ground and (3)I knew it would fall............would Open Theism accuse me of making it fall; OR, would they give me the courtesy of recognizing I only allowed it to fall and let nature take its course?

Rob

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Let's just change a few things around first, make it more "real", what do you say?

Lets remove the word "rock" and put in "baby" or "young child"

(1)I dropped a BABY and (2)it(theBABY) fell to the ground and (3)I knew it would fall.................would Open Theism accuse me of making it fall?

We wouldn't accuse you of making gravity work, but we would say you could have hurt that child!

It's more like this:

God Holds us in his hands as if we were children. If we want him to hold us, we can jump out of his hands! If we want to stay, we can stay there. Whatever happens, God is not at fault for trying to hold us.

We know that dropping something and allowing it to jump are two different things. The thing you don't seem to see is that by dropping it, You caused it to fall by means of cause and effect. If it jumped out, that was its own fault, not yours.

The traditional views of those opposed to the Open View are 1) God predestined it all to happen or 2) God started it the way it went(i.e. caused the fall). I know you are not a 1, but you have said to me before that you are a 2.

The "2" believe that Adam was a diver over a rocky ocean, daring himself to jump. Well, along comes God and pushes him off.

The Open theist removes the "God pushing part," and sees no reason to come to such a conclusion.

You are so longing for the Open Viewer to tell you that having a simple foreknowledge about something relieves God responsibility. But God knew if he dropped that baby, it would fall and hurt itself, and according to you, foreseeing the hurt, dropped it anyway, God would be responsible for dropping a baby(of course God would never do that, this is said for a lack of a better way).

Then you assert that it was OK, because God strapped a helmet to it. I.E. God's creating Adam knowing he would fall is OK because he also knew Jesus would die for that sin.

Doing a bad thing, and then doing something good to make up for it does not justify the bad thing. The only thing that can justify it is retribution/punishment. God can't just push Adam into the fall and then say "I'll give him a life-saver, that will free me from the blame." That is why God didn't do it at all, because he is not a sinner needing punishment as we are.

Even Jesus rebukes saying "If any of you cause one of these little ones to sin, it would be better if you threw yourself into the depths with a stone tied around your neck." Why would he rebuke knowing he did it to Adam?

For we come back to the O.V. Standing now, that Adam jumped out of God's arms, not that God dropped Adam foreseeing his falling and initiating it.

Thanks Rob,
-Pat

elected4ever said:

If God did not know that Adam would sin then why was Christ crucified from the foundation of the world? The foundation of the world was before man was even made.

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God certainly knew of the possibility of Adam falling when He gave him significant and genuine freedom to chose to obey or disobey. It was not a certainty or foregone conclusion from all eternity. This is why God said creation was 'very good' and then said that He was grieved He even made man (very strong Hebrew word showing a change in heart disposition in response to a new contingency).

Which verse are you thinking of? Was it referring to the beginning (Adam fell soon after creation) near when Adam fell (Hebraism)? Was it referring to God's potential, possible plan IF man fell and needed redemption. The potential plan was not implemented until AFTER the fall. Was Christ crucified before the creation of the world in actuality? Why not the wooden literalism now? He was actually crucified centuries after the fall and creation of the world.

The potential (possible) plan in eternity was implemented (certain) in space- time after the fall, but not actualized until about 29 A.D. (the Messiah did not incarnate before the world was created).

Bob Hill said:

godrulz and others,

We can see that prophecies made before Paul was saved, from Genesis to Acts nine, have nothing to do with this dispensation. Why? Because this dispensation is called the dispensation of the mystery.

We see this in Eph 3:8,9 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

Rom 16:25,26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret in age times 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith.

It also means that nothing was known about the church which is the body of Christ before it was revealed to the Apostle Paul. Because it is a mystery – a secret.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

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I agree that the Church Age was a mystery. Prophetic scholars agree that it was in a hidden valley of the mountain peaks of OT prophecy. We see prophecies about the first and second coming of the Messiah, but not about the Church Age. It was hidden (mystery) until the Jews rejected the King and His kingdom. We do now preach Christ and Him crucified (not possible before He was crucified and risen).

I guess we differ on the timing or scope of this. I do not see in these verses a need to exclude the Gospel of Christ being taken to Jew and Gentile alike to form one Body in Christ. Paul took this Gospel to the Gentiles. It was as much a mystery as the same Gospel that was taken by others to those of Jewish background. There is no need to postulate two gospels for two target audiences in the early church. The Church was birthed by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (this was still part of the hidden mystery). It was not birthed by Paul. Paul was raised up to take the message primarily to Gentiles. Others were slow on the uptake and wrongly assumed this Gospel was primarily for the Jews. The Spirit gradually led all believers in the transition from the Old to the New covenant (not from Old Covenant to gospel for circumcision to gospel for uncircumcision).

Bob Hill said:

godrulz,

We see in the book of James that James wrote “to the twelve tribes who were scattered abroad” that they were justified by faith plus works.
Jam 2:11,12,14,20,21,24,25 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

Bob Hill

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The phrase refers to those of Jewish background. James, like Hebrews, addresses those with Jewish background. Ephesians and Corinthians addresses those of Gentile background due to the nature of most believers in those cities/churches. This does not necessitate two gospels after the resurrection.

James is emphasizing the fruit of faith (root). He talks about our 'justification' before men (who cannot see invisible faith). Faith without works is mere mental assent like Satan has. James does not contradict Paul who showed that faith has always been the criteria for salvation (even in the Old Covenant Rom. 4 even Abraham was justified by faith, not by works...this is Pauline teaching, not a so-called gospel of circ./uncirc.).

Bob Hill said:

godrulz,

Baptism is another difference. We don’t have to be baptized in water. All we have to do is believe.
Acts 16:30,31 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

1 Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Under the ministry before God raised up the Apostle Paul, they had to be baptized to be saved.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

1 Pe 3:19-21 [Christ] went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us–baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh [which showed it was water baptism], but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Bob Hill

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Baptismal regeneration has never been truth. Most commentators do not see a contradiction in the proof texts you quote. Each should be exegeted in its own context. It seems the early church so equated faith and baptism that it does not have to be mentioned in every context. If you are consistent, you would have to argue that it was not necessary under Jesus' ministry because it is not mentioned in John 3 (yet, we have the ministry of John the Baptist during this time).

Bob Hill said:

godrulz,


In contrast, the purpose of the mystery is love.
1 Ti 1:3-5 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 5 Now the purpose of the commandment charge is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith.

2 Ti 1:12-14 I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep my deposit until that Day. 13 Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.14 Keep that good thing which was committed to you the good deposit, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.

The big difference is life changing and shows us in this Dispensation of Grace, that salvation is all of grace and our belief.

The thing that will happen if people mix the two gospels, the gospel of grace and the gospel of the circumcision, is confusion. They will find so many contradictions in the Bible they will throw up their hands in frustration.

The Holy Spirit seals us right when we trust in Christ as our Savior. We cannot lose our salvation once we believe in Christ as our Savior.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

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I do not see contradictions and diametrically opposed theologies between Pauline, Petrine, Johannine, etc. They have different emphases and teachings, but not different gospels. Salvation has always been by grace through faith, though expressed differently in different dispensations. Jesus was full of grace and truth and taught faith, grace, love, not works. Obeying God's universal law out of love subsequent to salvation is not a work. Jesus said the work of God (not works like their question) was to believe on the one He sent. John 3:16 does not contradict Rom. 1-8.

Bob Hill said:

godrulz



The Two Gospels
When questions surfaced in Galatia shortly after Paul had just been there, Paul got upset. He wrote them a letter that we call Galatians.

Gal 1:6-9 I’m amazed that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Eph 1:5 clearly states the security we members of the body of Christ have: “having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.”

When Israel rejected Christ, God raised up Paul with a different commission from the 12 Apostles. Their commission required baptism for salvation, as in Mk 16:15-18 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

In contrast, Paul’s commission did not include baptism.
1 Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

There was a different dispensation, that is, a different method of salvation. Peter and the eleven had the gospel of the circumcision. Paul had the gospel of the uncircumcision. The circumcision gospel was always associated with works for salvation. Paul’s gospel, according to Acts 16:31, was, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.”

Paul was given a whole new program called the dispensation of the Mystery, or the dispensation of Grace. Eph 3:1-9 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles; 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

Two gospels.
Paul had been given a different gospel by the resurrected Christ according to Gal 2:7-9 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for [eis] the apostleship of the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward [eis] the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to [eis] the Gentiles and they to [eis] the circumcised.

What can we do about the lack of knowledge about the gospel and the mystery? First, learn about the gospel of grace; then share it. If you're not saved by grace, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior.

Bob Hill

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This issue in Galatians was a false gospel of the Judaizers vs the true Gospel of Paul, Peter, James, John, and others. Take off the Mid-Acts glasses. The other leaders came to recognize that Paul was preaching the same Gospel as they were, not a false gospel of those who added works to faith as a condition of salvation.

Bob Hill said:

If we preached the water baptism for salvation that Peter preached on the day of Pentecost, we would be in error.

Those who belong to the Church of Christ believe you have to be water baptized to be saved. It is easy to see where they get that idea. Peter preached that on Pentecost. But, Paul never baptized for salvation.

Bob Hill

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Paul likely did baptize at times, even as he was baptized following in the footsteps of His Master. He left the time consuming baptizing and discipleship to other leaders so he could move on and preach the Gospel of Christ. Baptism is a step of obedience/discipleship subsequent to salvation. It is not necessary for Paul to baptize his own converts anymore than Jesus or John did when they preached the Gospel. Billy Graham preaches Christ and encourages baptism. He does not baptize those who come to Christ under his ministry. Do not read more into one text than is merited.

This is an open theism thread. Mid-Acts is not part of classic Open Theism. It merits its own thread for those who are interested.

godrulz said:

This issue in Galatians was a false gospel of the Judaizers vs the true Gospel of Paul, Peter, James, John, and others. Take off the Mid-Acts glasses.

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If we let the first and second chapters of Galatians set the stage then the issue in Galatians was the disagreement between Paul and Peter, James, and John. The Judaizers are never mentioned in Galatians, but Paul recounts that he rebuked Peter to his face.

godrulz said:

Jesus was full of grace and truth and taught faith, grace, love, not works.

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Jesus taught that salvation came through keeping the law (Luke 18:18-25), and never mentions grace. Jesus did teach faith and love, but to say he did not teach works is foolish. Did Jesus not say that the Pharisees were wrong because they tithed only, when they should have DONE more important matters of justice AND still tithed. Jesus clealy taugh works. Perhaps you are the one with the colored glasses on?