ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
- Thread starter ChristisKing
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seekinganswers
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godrulz said:
So reason, logic, and empiricism have no bearing on the way in which you define knowledge? And if something of God is understood in the Creation, than how can it be said that "no one has ever seen (observed) God?"
Peace,
Michael
elected4ever
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No one knows God in theory. Ether one knows God in reality or they do not know Him at all. Sense all man are dead to God because of the operation of the law no mortal man can know God but through revelation. That revelation must be accepted before true knowledge of God can be imparted. If one just thinks that they know God through theology and theology defines God for you then that person does not know God. God is defined by a relationship with Him
elected4ever said:
This is the difference between knowing about God and knowing God intimately in relationship. We can know things about God or any person and either relationally know or not. They are not mutually exclusive. God reveals truth about His attributes, character, and ways through our minds and spirit.
seekinganswers
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godrulz said:
No. Nobody has known God except through the Son.
Peace,
Michael
elected4ever
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Hebrews 1:1 *¶God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,godrulz said:
2 *Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
In today's reality God speaks to us through His Son exclusively. There is no intimate knowledge of God but through the Son.
seekinganswers
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godrulz said:
"Before Abraham was..."
Peace,
Michael
Jesus affirmed His preexistence. The Messiah was not revealed until the fullness of time (Gal. 4:4). The OT saints worshipped YHWH and looked forward to the Messiah by faith. The old covenant was not explicitly dealing with coming to the Father through the person of Christ. His full revelation and resurrection had not happened yet. They looked forward to the person and work of the Messiah by faith. We look back to Him and know Him as the risen Christ. OT saints did not receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior as explicitly as NT saints. The new covenant is the reality of which the old covenant was a shadow/type. We know the Word existed with the Father from all eternity. This does not negate progressive revelation of the triune God through the centuries. The person and work of the Holy Spirit was alluded to in the OT, but Jesus more fully revealed and sent Him to be another Comforter to indwell us (unlike OT saints).
seekinganswers
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godrulz said:
Then what Spirit comes on the Saints of the Old Testament? The Spirit dwells in the prophets. Is this Spirit a different one?
Peace,
Michael
seekinganswers said:
The Holy Spirit is in Genesis 1 to Revelation. The point is that the triune God revealed Himself progressively over the centuries. The OT emphasizes one God vs many gods. It hints at the person and work of the Spirit. It talks about the Spirit coming upon the OT saints at times rather than indwelling every OT believer. The NT emphasizes the indwelling Christ/Spirit. He does not just come upon believers at isolated times for specific anointings. Jesus reveals more of the Spirit in John 14-15. Likewise, the Messiah is mentioned in the OT, but His full revelation occurs after the incarnation in the Gospels (cf. Heb. 1:1-3).
It is the same Spirit, but His person and work is more fully revealed in the New Covenant, as is the Messiah's.
Let's not nit pick. I think we agree on the essentials of the faith.
Ah. Okay.Frank Ernest said:
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
The Open View of God maintains that some of God’s prophecies do not come true. Why? Because God changes His mind. There are also some prophecies in the Bible that never actually came true. One example is the destruction of Nineveh. God changed His mind.
In Isaiah 5:1-7, God explained the problem with Israel in this way: He expected good grapes, but instead got wild grapes.
Isaiah 5:1-7 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved a song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, and planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, and also made a winepress in it. So He expected it to bring forth good grapes, but it brought forth wild grapes. 3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard that I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, did it bring forth wild grapes? 5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned; And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down. 6 I will lay it waste; It shall not be pruned or dug, but there shall come up briers and thorns. I will also command the clouds That they rain no rain on it.” 7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah are His pleasant plant. He looked for justice, but behold, oppression; For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
In Isaiah 5:1-7, God explained the problem with Israel in this way: He expected good grapes, but instead got wild grapes.
Isaiah 5:1-7 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved a song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, and planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, and also made a winepress in it. So He expected it to bring forth good grapes, but it brought forth wild grapes. 3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard that I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, did it bring forth wild grapes? 5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned; And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down. 6 I will lay it waste; It shall not be pruned or dug, but there shall come up briers and thorns. I will also command the clouds That they rain no rain on it.” 7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah are His pleasant plant. He looked for justice, but behold, oppression; For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
elected4ever
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Mr. Hill, God did not change His mind about anything. God acted totally within His character. The change of mind came from the Ninevites. It is man that changes, not God. There is nothing in scripture that says that God did not know. God is not a man that he should be judged as a man. You are bringing God down to the level of man and applying human reasoning as an attribute of God. That is what all false gods are, a product of human reasoning. It seems to me you have made God into what you wont Him to be for your own satisfaction an human understanding.Bob Hill said:
elected4ever said:
We are trying to represent God as He has revealed Himself in Scripture. God is personal and can thus change His mind and will and emotions in response to changing contingencies. He sovereignly chose to create a universe with significant others who were intended to enter into reciprocal relationships with the Creator. This is the clear biblical revelation. Your concept of a static God that foists unilateral things on creation is a lesser concept of God and to in line with a literal reading of Scripture. You must make many passages in Scripture figurative, without warrant, to support your view. Changing one's mind does not have to be fickle or capricious. God can change His mind without compromising His unchanging character.
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Another one is Tyre.
God said He would give Tyre to Nebuchadnezzar. Eze 26:7-16 “For thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, with chariots, and with horsemen, and an army with many people. 8 He will slay with the sword your daughter villages in the fields; he will heap up a siege mound against you, build a wall against you, and raise a defense against you. 9 He will direct his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. 10 Because of the abundance of his horses, their dust will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen, the wagons, and the chariots, when he enters your gates, as men enter a city that has been breached. 11 With the hooves of his horses he will trample all your streets; he will slay your people by the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water. 13 I will put an end to the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps shall be heard no more. 14 I will make you like the top of a rock; you shall be a place for spreading nets, and you shall never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken,’ says the Lord GOD. 15 “Thus says the Lord GOD to Tyre: ‘Will the coastlands not shake at the sound of your fall, when the wounded cry, when slaughter is made in the midst of you? 16 Then all the princes of the sea will come down from their thrones, lay aside their robes, and take off their embroidered garments; they will clothe themselves with trembling; they will sit on the ground, tremble every moment, and be astonished at you.”
But it didn’t happen. In fact, God said He would give Nebuchadnezzar Egypt, but that did not happen either. We don’t know why these two operations by Nebuchadnezzar did not work, but they didn’t.
Eze 29:17 And it came to pass in the twenty-seventh year, in the first month, on the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 18 “Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon caused his army to labor strenuously against Tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder rubbed raw; yet neither he nor his army received wages from Tyre, for the labor which they expended on it. 19 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Surely I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; he shall take away her wealth, carry off her spoil, and remove her pillage; and that will be the wages for his army. 20 I have given him the land of Egypt for his labor, because they worked for Me,’” says the Lord GOD.
God changed His plans for some reason, but we don’t know what it was.
Bob Hill
God said He would give Tyre to Nebuchadnezzar. Eze 26:7-16 “For thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, with chariots, and with horsemen, and an army with many people. 8 He will slay with the sword your daughter villages in the fields; he will heap up a siege mound against you, build a wall against you, and raise a defense against you. 9 He will direct his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. 10 Because of the abundance of his horses, their dust will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen, the wagons, and the chariots, when he enters your gates, as men enter a city that has been breached. 11 With the hooves of his horses he will trample all your streets; he will slay your people by the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water. 13 I will put an end to the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps shall be heard no more. 14 I will make you like the top of a rock; you shall be a place for spreading nets, and you shall never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken,’ says the Lord GOD. 15 “Thus says the Lord GOD to Tyre: ‘Will the coastlands not shake at the sound of your fall, when the wounded cry, when slaughter is made in the midst of you? 16 Then all the princes of the sea will come down from their thrones, lay aside their robes, and take off their embroidered garments; they will clothe themselves with trembling; they will sit on the ground, tremble every moment, and be astonished at you.”
But it didn’t happen. In fact, God said He would give Nebuchadnezzar Egypt, but that did not happen either. We don’t know why these two operations by Nebuchadnezzar did not work, but they didn’t.
Eze 29:17 And it came to pass in the twenty-seventh year, in the first month, on the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 18 “Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon caused his army to labor strenuously against Tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder rubbed raw; yet neither he nor his army received wages from Tyre, for the labor which they expended on it. 19 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Surely I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; he shall take away her wealth, carry off her spoil, and remove her pillage; and that will be the wages for his army. 20 I have given him the land of Egypt for his labor, because they worked for Me,’” says the Lord GOD.
God changed His plans for some reason, but we don’t know what it was.
Bob Hill
elected4ever
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Nebuchadrezzar 11 besieged Tyre for 13 years (587 - 574 BC) No contemporary record of this siege remains.Bob Hill said:
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