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Thread: Proof from the Bible that God is In Time

  1. #91
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulos View Post
    Does Jesus change?
    Hebrews 13:8
    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
    Yeah, they'll read that as 'literally' yesterday, not as an eternal non-beginning. Saying "He changed" means He has a start-up date and is somehow a created being as well as an uncreated being. Essentially, that is what open theism means. They don't see the huge logical discrepancy that should be more than apparent, hammering on misdirection rather, that such an idea is from "greek philosophers."
    I don't care who sees logical conclusions, as long as they are consistent.
    I rather doubt Christianity is influenced by greek philosophy but that right thinking, regardless of who in Greece or Poland sees it, is right thinking, period. Who cares who comes up with truth as long as it is truth. People can agree with God's truth, even if they haven't read the Bible. The strawmen would have us think that if it is greek, its bad? That's quite a leap I can't make with them.
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    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

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    Quote Originally Posted by sky. View Post
    This is blatantly false. Christians that believe that God is ETERNAL do NOT think God is "in an eternal now" that doesn't even make sense to a Christian. It is however what YOU believe. It is what "Open Theism" teaches and goes directly against the divine attributes of God. You can spin it any way you want but ETERNAL means TIMELESS.
    Eternal includes uncreated, no beginning and no end. It does not preclude duration/sequence/succession (time) nor does it have to mean timeless (whatever that means). "Eternal now" is the concept for timelessness. C.S. Lewis used it, but he was wrong on this issue. You simply beg the question and show you do not understand this debate at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky. View Post
    Yep, I believe that God has seen every possibility, already.
    There is a difference between possibility and actuality/certainty. The potential future is anticipatory, not actual. The future becomes the fixed past through the present. If an agent does not yet exist, then the contingent choices cannot be seen/foreknown as a certainty, even by an omniscient God. If you want to retain your view, you will have to become a hyper-determinist.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulos View Post
    Does Jesus change?

    Hebrews 13:8
    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
    Jesus changes in some ways (adding humanity to Deity in the incarnation), but not in other ways (the point of the verse, constancy of character, not absolute immutability in a Platonic sense).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

  5. #95
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Jesus changes in some ways (adding humanity to Deity in the incarnation), but not in other ways (the point of the verse, constancy of character, not absolute immutability in a Platonic sense).
    Is 'becoming flesh' actually a change in who He is/was? Does it affect, let's say, His character? His eternality? God is being relational to our time constraints, but is it significant enough to call it change? I mean I can change my clothes, but such is a rather spurious thing. You don't really mean "Lon changed!" I'm still the same ol' Lon, just in a different shirt. Same somewhat-immutable me (extrinsic vs. intrinsic - one is allowable logically, the other not at all for God).

    For specifics, we need to exact what kind of change we are talking about. You say "God changes" but as the OV is going with both intrinsic and extrinsic change, we must protest. We will acquiesce the extrinsic but not at all on that which is intrinsic. Extrinsic ("relational to") is understood.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Over 1500 post club Frank Ernest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post


    Here is a biblical PROOF that GOD IS IN TIME and experiences change in sequence:
    Thank you! Saved for study.

    Psalm 144

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    Quote Originally Posted by sky. View Post
    Yep, I believe that God has seen every possibility, already.
    I didn't ask if God has seen (past tense...which is an indication of time by the way)...but whether or not He SEES the past, present, and future all at the same time.
    fidelis usque ad mortem

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulos View Post
    Does Jesus change?

    Hebrews 13:8
    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
    Do the words emphasized below indicate change?

    ...but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
    fidelis usque ad mortem

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Is 'becoming flesh' actually a change in who He is/was?
    If He was not always flesh and became flesh...that does change who He is. His righteousness and eternal nature doesn't change...but He did experience a change from not being flash to becoming flesh.
    fidelis usque ad mortem

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    Quote Originally Posted by sky. View Post
    Yep, I believe that God has seen every possibility, already.
    Quote Originally Posted by chatmaggot View Post
    I didn't ask if God has seen (past tense...which is an indication of time by the way)...but whether or not He SEES the past, present, and future all at the same time.

    I believe that God has seen every possibility ALREADY. So yeah I think He remembers what He already saw.

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    Does Whatever A Light-House Can Lighthouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky. View Post
    God doesn't need your or my "actualities" to be in control.
    I agree.

    What we do in time doesn't affect His eternality. What He does in our time doesn't change His eternality.
    Do you have any Scripture to show God is in eternity rather than in time?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    I agree.


    Do you have any Scripture to show God is in eternity rather than in time?
    I'll look but let me leave you with this. If the souls of the dead are with God in eternity now. Then where is God?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Holy Scripture teaches there are 3 heavens:

    Two created.

    One being the eternal (thus uncreated) realm of God.

    The first heaven, is the created atmosphere and sky that is visible to man, in which creatures fly.

    The second heaven, is outer space, which God created to give guiding lights to mankind, in order to navigate earth and sea.

    The third heaven, is the realm of God's Being. And since this realm is eternal, it is divine, and therefore, is not created, but rather is the everlasting spiritual description of where God IS, and where He reigns and rules in full glory, forever and ever.

    Nang
    Okay, I accept that description of the heavens ... but the truth remains that God was able to manifest his appearance with an IMAGE in at least the two created... the heaven where angels appear (Psalm 82:1 KJV) ... and in the visible heavens that are related to our physical earth ... no matter how high one goes above the earth.

    It seems that there is even another realm where God can cause his IMAGE to appear ... for after the crucifixion Christ, who is the image of God (Colossians 1:15), appeared in hell and preached to those of his choice there. I believe that He appeared there and that perhaps the lost souls in that place also appeared before him.

    It also seems that God can manifest his visible presence in the less tangible realm of dreams and visions inside men's minds.

    Could there be more places he might appear? I wonder.
    Last edited by Ps82; December 9th, 2011 at 05:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Well, sure . . . that is the gospel message.

    The Lord from heaven, lowered Himself to come in human form, in order to mediate reconciliation between infinite God and finite men, to build a heavenly Kingdom!

    "Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death; that is, the devil." Hebrews 2:14

    You wrote:





    Yes. But I am not sure it is wise to call this "image" of God, a created "it."

    The "image" of God is solely found in uncreate Jesus Christ, and those created in His image. It is the self-concept of uncreated God of His Person, that has been shared with His creation of mankind.

    Your thoughts are inspirational, but I caution you not to become too mystical, on this subject.

    Nang
    I'm glad to see that you wrote - YES regarding the image of Genesis 27,28 KJV.

    Allow me to ask a few pondering type questions:
    Do you believe that God is an infinite eternal invisible spirit?
    If He is an invisible Spirit, then what might he do in order to appear?
    Wouldn't he need to create something for himself?
    Doesn't Colossians 1:15 reveal to us that the IMAGE of God was the firstborn of ALL CREATURES.

    I know that you wanted to relate the term first born to - those being born again for the kingdom ... but then ALL CREATRUES are not born again... while it is true that ALL CREATURES were created.

    The image of God was the firstborn of ALL CREATURES who were created.

    This is why I understand that God first created an image for his own use ... then created an image with which Adam would appear ... and Adam's image was formed after the likeness and image belonging to God. Once again - evidence that God's image came first.

    How does all this IMAGE talk relate to the topic?

    While God, as the creator, established the processes that evolve over time ...
    It was still with His use of His own image that God entered the heavenly, earthly, and etc. realms of creations and therefore was able to enter into time himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sky. View Post
    I'll look but let me leave you with this. If the souls of the dead are with God in eternity now. Then where is God?
    My argument is not that God is not in eternity, but that eternity is not separate from time.

    Isaiah 57:15


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