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Thread: Proof from the Bible that God is In Time

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoofadoo View Post
    If God is not Sovereign, how did Jesus know Peter would deny Him three times?
    God IS sovereign, but not in the Calvinistic meticulous control sense. God being sovereign also does not mean that He is timeless or eternal now. Even in endless time view (Open Theism, etc.), God can know of Peter's denial based on perfect past and present knowledge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulos View Post
    Time can be measured, but I don't think that God is limited to physical measurements. God is both in time and outside of time, both eminent and transcendent.

    As far as I am aware, matter, energy, space and time are all attributes of the physical universe, but God is Spirit (John 4:24); therefore, God transcends all physicality, including time.
    Time is not a created thing nor space. It is philosophical, not physical. The measures of time should not be confused with time as a concept of duration/succession/sequence.

    God is immanent (eminent and imminent are different words) and transcendent, but that does not have to mean He is timeless at all.

    God is also not limited like we are with time, yet He still experiences duration. Timelessness is a Platonic, philosophical theory, not a biblical, logical fact (every page of Scripture shows sequence in God's experience; Pastor Enyart has capably dealt with some of the proof texts that are misused).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

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    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoofadoo View Post
    Thanks for the link. It definitely explains a lot. I will read it more carefully in the future, however, I got my answer

    I was underestimating God's will and knowledge of our hearts.
    Even in Open Theism, God is infinitely intelligent and ignorant of nothing knowable. The future is inherently different than the past/present and God knows reality as it is. An omnicompetent God does not have to be omnicausal nor does exhaustive definite foreknowledge (not compatible with libertarian free will) offer any providential advantage (God could not change the foreknown future even if He wanted to).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
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    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrRadish View Post
    If God can't see the future, He can't know the consequences of His actions. He also can't guess the consequences of His actions as guessing implies He has the capacity to be wrong. If He can't know or guess the consequences of His actions then He is totally blind and has even less power than a human being, who can at least make some sort of prediction based on the information available to them.

    If God can see the future, He must be able to see it in its entirety, including the decisions He is going to make. If He exists in time, then He must therefore have made all of those decisions at the beginning of His existence. But His existence didn't have a beginning, therefore he must be seperate from time.

    Does not compute, but where to begin?

    www.opentheism.info
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    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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    Quote Originally Posted by sky. View Post
    When I read even the idea that "God is in time" I get this idea that He is just kicked back in his recliner just waiting for His lunch to digest before He makes another move. Is this what you're selling? I don't get it.

    God is ETERNAL! that means TIMELESS!
    God IS eternal, but that does not mean timeless! Timelessness is a specious philosophical concept. Endless time (duration/sequence/succession) is as much eternal (no beginning, no end) as timelessness would be (whatever that means).

    http://www.revivaltheology.net/9_openness/eternity.html (take a moment!)

    http://www.amazon.com/God-Time-Views.../dp/0830815511

    Don't be dogmatic until you understand these views (Wolterstorff's divine temporality resonates with Scripture and reality)..
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
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    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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    Quote Originally Posted by sky. View Post
    Why would God need to go back in time?

    If God doesn't know the future than how can He be all knowing? He doesn't need to go there in order to know it. If we as Christians believe that God is all knowing and all powerful then He HAS to know the future. Do you think the future is going to take Him by surprise?

    Isaiah 46:10

    10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
    And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
    Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
    And I will do all My pleasure
    Read Is. 46 and 48 carefully. The way God knows some aspects of the future is by His ABILITY to bring it to pass, not by a crystal ball prescience. We cannot extrapolate some knowledge to exhaustive definite foreknowledge of future free will contingencies. There are two motifs in Scripture: God knows some of the future, while other aspects are open/unsettled.

    The future is not there yet to be known, so the issue is the nature of non-deterministic creation, not a limitation on omniscience (God knows all that is knowable, but there are certain things that are not knowable in the future until the contingent choice settles the future).

    Don't underestimate God's wisdom, knowledge, power, even without EDF (power is also not identical to knowledge; one can have little power and great knowledge or great power and little knowledge).

    God is in control without being all-controlling. EDF offers no providential advantage, so don't hang your hat on a useless myth.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
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    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Time is a function of the sun, moon, and stars. Since God created those things he is definitely outside them....for they could not exist without his creative capability.

    No scripture needed.

    Close thread.
    Open thread because you are confusing the unique measures of time after creation (sun, moon, stars, clocks, watches, sundials, hourglasses, etc.) with time itself (which is not dependent on measures and marches on with or without clocks). Time (duration) existed in the uncreated triune relations from eternity past, even before clocks subjectively measured it.

    Ps. 90:2; Ps. 102:27; Rev. 1:4; Rev. 1:8; verses in Revelation about time in eternity/heaven, etc. are biblical support. Enyart has responded to the few timeless proof texts that say no such thing (I AM does not mean timeless, but eternality, self-existence, etc. An endless time God is as eternal as a timeless one, whatever that would mean).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

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    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    So you theorize, but the answer is, no.

    The definition of God is "I AM."

    Not "I DO," or "I DID."


    The creation (all things material) manifest God's eternal will and purposes. His creatures are born into this material world, which is time-limited (temporal).

    God is eternal; thus He cannot be limited to the creation of time, for any purpose or reason.

    Those who attempt to incorporate Almighty God into a time-frame, simply reveal their humanistic philosophy, which is far from faith-centered adherence to the revelation and Word of God.

    Nang

    You really don't get this debate.

    I AM is not timeless. Eternal is not timeless. Until you understand major views on this fascinating subject, you should not be simplistic and dogmatic. Augustine was not right about everything.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    This is illogical and false.



    Bob is trying to convince others that God is like Bob.

    Bob insults Almighty and Eternal God by attempting to bring God down to his level.

    Nang
    Totally false accusation/straw man showing you should stick with basket weaving, not theology online.
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    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    No reason to apologize. You apprehended the OP. The first sentence said it all:



    "Here is a biblical PROOF that GOD IS IN TIME and experiences change in sequence:"

    God does not change, because of any of His creation, for God is immutable. Any teaching that theorizes differently is just plain wrong.

    Nang
    Your view is Platonic, not biblical. Even classical thinkers like yourself are seeing that impassibility is false, immutability is weak, not strong (God changes in some ways, but not in other ways; incarnation is a profound change in God's triune relations, etc.), etc.

    Change does not imply imperfection, but is necessary for a personal being, including God (who is dynamic, Living, not static). His character and attributes do not change, but that does not mean that His knowledge, experiences, relations do not change in any sense. The few immutability proof texts relate to constancy of character, not false Platonic conceptions of the Ideal.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

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    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Open thread because you are confusing the unique measures of time after creation (sun, moon, stars, clocks, watches, sundials, hourglasses, etc.) with time itself (which is not dependent on measures and marches on with or without clocks). Time (duration) existed in the uncreated triune relations from eternity past, even before clocks subjectively measured it.

    Ps. 90:2; Ps. 102:27; Rev. 1:4; Rev. 1:8; verses in Revelation about time in eternity/heaven, etc. are biblical support. Enyart has responded to the few timeless proof texts that say no such thing (I AM does not mean timeless, but eternality, self-existence, etc. An endless time God is as eternal as a timeless one, whatever that would mean).

    Is time something that can be measured Godrulz?

    Is God someone who can be measured Godrulz?

    By definition, time is something that can be measured. therefore God is greater than time and therefore exists outside it. If you want to keep the thread open and continue the discussion, that's fine.

    I'm out. Thread closed for me.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Is time something that can be measured Godrulz?

    Is God someone who can be measured Godrulz?

    By definition, time is something that can be measured. therefore God is greater than time and therefore exists outside it. If you want to keep the thread open and continue the discussion, that's fine.

    I'm out. Thread closed for me.
    You are not been logical with your non sequiturs. Instead of looking at the strength and weakness of various views that you apparently are not aware of or do not understand, you parrot your party line.

    Time is something that can be measured. Sugar can be measured, but it exists whether you measure it or not. The concept and reality of time and sugar is not identical to various measures of it. Whether we measure sugar or not, it still exists. Even before our measures of time, time as a concept existed forever (it is not a created thing like sugar).

    God cannot be measured. Using your logic, God cannot think, act, or feel because they can be measured in a sense. Love and time are co-eternal with God. They are aspects of His experience. God is infinite spirit. You are confusing categories and coming up with a false parallel/analogy.

    Your definition of time as measured confuses the various measures of time with the fundamental concept of it. Even if you don't measure succession, it still happens. Even if a tree falls in the forest, it makes a sound whether you are there to hear it or not.

    Is God greater than love or is love part of God's reality/experience/expression? The eternal God must think, act, feel in sequence to be personal. This is exactly what we see on every page of Scripture. What we don't ever see is your Platonic timeless concept that you would be hard pressed to explain logically, biblically, in light of God's interactions with the temporal world.

    You seem totally unaware of the complexity/simplicity and ongoing detailed debate on these issues. You have adopted a Sunday School version without thinking critically, academically, biblically.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

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  13. #43
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    There is Time in Heaven: When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about HALF AN HOUR (Rev. 8:1).
    Er,Bob, if it is a literal half an hour then John was 'literally' there.........
    ....in the future! Stay consistent, man! Use that God-given brain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    - When He opened the fifth seal [martyrs in heaven said]: "HOW LONG, O Lord… until You… avenge our blood…" (Rev. 6:9; 11:17-18).
    - …the tree of life… bore twelve fruits [a different one] EVERY MONTH (Rev. 22:2).
    Besides not being consistent, you are also falling into the same incorrect/inconsistent loop as others before you have, and that being: God is relational to time and heaven is relational to it also, which doesn't mean what is assumed, that there is nothing else or no other possibility to existence. It is incorrect to assume that 'relational' means locked-in. That logic just doesn't follow as if it is the only way God can related. God is both relational to, yet unconstrained by time. I can be in Paris and yet fly home anytime I like. Being in Paris doesn't make me French.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    - [God will not punish demons] "before [their] time" (Mat. 8:29).
    If the TRUE perspective is God's ETERNAL NOW, then David is now killing Bathsheba’s husband, each believer is still in his sin, and the Father is right now pouring out wrath on His Son, right now. But this is false for Hebrews says that Jesus suffered "once for all."
    Again, that's just silly. We live in a 'temporal' (created) environment and are finite creatures. The infinite cannot be thought of in terms of the finite and time is one of those logical as well as physically manifested properties. You are trying to say all but time are created properties? That logic just doesn't fly. It is logical that what I make is apart from me. God is no more 'bound' by time than moments of contemplative interaction making and observing the created, than He is bound inside the cookie jar He made. This kind of assertion, no matter where you want to conveniently redirect blame, is elementary or at least freshman.
    The above consideration alone, that John is seeing a 'literal' half an hour then would mean it is a 'future literal' half an hour, proves the fact: relational, unconstrained.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    For your convenience we have created a short link for this article at http://bit.ly/godandtime
    Yeah, I'd think you'd want to wait until such starkly obvious discrepancies as above are adequately addressed before submitting first-drafts as if they are gold or something.
    Last edited by Lon; December 8th, 2011 at 03:18 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulos View Post
    Time can be measured, but I don't think that God is limited to physical measurements. God is both in time and outside of time, both eminent and transcendent.

    As far as I am aware, matter, energy, space and time are all attributes of the physical universe, but God is Spirit (John 4:24); therefore, God transcends all physicality, including time.
    Time is physical? Can you show me that it is? Can you touch it? Taste it? See it? Hear it? Can you smell it?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrRadish View Post
    If God can't see the future, He can't know the consequences of His actions. He also can't guess the consequences of His actions as guessing implies He has the capacity to be wrong. If He can't know or guess the consequences of His actions then He is totally blind and has even less power than a human being, who can at least make some sort of prediction based on the information available to them.
    You underestimate God's intelligence.

    I am merely human and I can guess the consequences of my actions, how much more can God know the consequences of His own?

    If God can see the future, He must be able to see it in its entirety, including the decisions He is going to make. If He exists in time, then He must therefore have made all of those decisions at the beginning of His existence. But His existence didn't have a beginning, therefore he must be seperate from time.
    This is circular reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by rainee View Post
    ...before time.
    This is an oxymoron.

    Quote Originally Posted by sky. View Post
    God is ETERNAL! that means TIMELESS!
    No it doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Time is a function of the sun, moon, and stars. Since God created those things he is definitely outside them....for they could not exist without his creative capability.

    No scripture needed.

    Close thread.
    You might as well be sitting on the sidewalk in rags asking Charles Victor Szasz for change.


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    God won't be in time for Xmas 2030 AD

    because three days after Xmas

    He is going to Destroy the world.

    Have a nice day.
    GOD HAS PROMISED US IMMORTALITY

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