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Thread: Knight's pick 10-08-2011

  1. #91
    TOL Subscriber heir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Ernest View Post
    No. Avoiding evil is not equivalent to doing good.
    That's not what I asked you. I asked you to please tell me, will NOT doing the things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV make one righteous? You need 100% righteousness to get to heaven.

    Why did you use 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV as a proof text, your "final answer" implying that if you do those things you will not inherit the kingdom of God? That's why I asked you in the first place if you believed that NOT doing those things would make one righteous. You can't have it both ways. Either you believe that anyone who practices such will not go to heaven or you know that NOT doing those things is not the reason why people will not go to heaven. The key word in the verses you cited is "unrighteous".

    1 Corinthians 6:9 KJV Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    It is the unrighteous that will not inherit the kingdom of God and that CANNOT be speaking of ONE person in the Body of Christ!

    There shouldn't be anyone here who believes the Bible and understands what happens to someone the moment they trust the Lord for salvation believing that Christ died for their sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV). Members of the Body of Christ have the righteousness of God upon them!

    Romans 3:20-24 KJV Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Romans 1:16-17 KJV For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    So I have to ask...What must one do to be saved?

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    Silver Member SaulToPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    That's not what I asked you. I asked you to please tell me, will NOT doing the things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV make one righteous? You need 100% righteousness to get to heaven.

    Why did you use 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV as a proof text, your "final answer" implying that if you do those things you will not inherit the kingdom of God? That's why I asked you in the first place if you believed that NOT doing those things would make one righteous. You can't have it both ways. Either you believe that anyone who practices such will not go to heaven or you know that NOT doing those things is not the reason why people will not go to heaven. The key word in the verses you cited is "unrighteous".

    1 Corinthians 6:9 KJV Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    It is the unrighteous that will not inherit the kingdom of God and that CANNOT be speaking of ONE person in the Body of Christ!

    There shouldn't be anyone here who believes the Bible and understands what happens to someone the moment they trust the Lord for salvation believing that Christ died for their sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Epheisnas 1:13-14 KJV). They have the righteousness of God upon them!

    Romans 3:20-24 KJV Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Romans 1:16-17 KJV For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    So I have to ask...What must one do to be saved?



    The verse does NOT say:


    The righteous who do these things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


    Great post, heir.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    Agreed and is why I asked Frank if NOT doing those things would make one righteous. Waiting for Frank's reply.
    Agreed.

    "9:12 well … sick. The Pharisees thought they were well—religiously pure and whole. The outcasts knew they were not. Salvation can’t come to the self-righteous.

    9:13 go and learn what this means. This phrase was commonly used as a rebuke for those who did not know something they should have known. The verse Jesus cites is Hos. 6:6 (cf. 1 Sam. 15:22; Mic. 6:6–8), which emphasizes the absolute priority of the law’s moral standards over the ceremonial requirements. The Pharisees tended to focus on the outward, ritual, and ceremonial aspects of God’s law—to the neglect of its inward, eternal, and moral precepts. In doing so, they became harsh, judgmental, and self-righteously scornful of others. Jesus repeated this same criticism in 12:7." MacArthur, John Jr: The MacArthur Study Bible. electronic ed. Nashville : Word Pub., 1997, c1997, S. Mt 9:12-13

  4. #94
    Over 1500 post club Frank Ernest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    That's not what I asked you. I asked you to please tell me, will NOT doing the things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV make one righteous? You need 100% righteousness to get to heaven.
    Since you seem to have a ready answer to your question, why ask me?
    Why did you use 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV as a proof text, your "final answer" implying that if you do those things you will not inherit the kingdom of God?
    I do believe those particular verses carry no implications. I believe Paul is very clear.
    That's why I asked you in the first place if you believed that NOT doing those things would make one righteous. You can't have it both ways.
    I don't. I do believe Paul was clear enough without my assistance. Apparently, it's giving you a problem.
    Either you believe that anyone who practices such will not go to heaven or you know that NOT doing those things is not the reason why people will not go to heaven. The key word in the verses you cited is "unrighteous".
    I do believe you're attempting to confuse the issue, for what reason I do not know.
    1 Corinthians 6:9 KJV Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    It is the unrighteous that will not inherit the kingdom of God and that CANNOT be speaking of ONE person in the Body of Christ!
    If you wish to give Bible lectures, you may do so without picking a fight with me.
    There shouldn't be anyone here who believes the Bible and understands what happens to someone the moment they trust the Lord for salvation believing that Christ died for their sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV). Members of the Body of Christ have the righteousness of God upon them!
    Righteousness is not license.
    Romans 3:20-24 KJV Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Romans 1:16-17 KJV For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    So I have to ask...What must one do to be saved?
    Well, son, I've studied Scripture for quite some years and don't need to be lectured on the Christianity basics. You may prefer to think of me as just another Biblical illiterate (or target of opportunity) whom you need to inform/educate/convert or whatever, but such isn't the case. I don't subscribe to universalism either if that's where you're headed.

    Psalm 144

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    Over 4000 post club alwight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Eyed Jack View Post
    I know.
    I think that you probably genuinely think you do know but also probably dare not express or even admit to yourself any degree of doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by One Eyed Jack View Post
    How do you know your mother?
    She is made of real matter that I can touch and I drive her to the shops once a week and sometimes to the hairdresser.

    Quote Originally Posted by One Eyed Jack View Post
    Can you provide some examples of these differing details?
    Yes of course I could, but you only need to look around TOL to see how individually the supposed word of God gets interpreted by fundies and others who seem to claim knowledge, but they can't all be right or have knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by One Eyed Jack View Post
    I've never heard anyone outside of Christianity actually claim to know God.
    So you doubt that other religionists are sincere in what they believe and think that they know? But perhaps they are all deluded?
    There are indeed Christians here on TOL who will claim that God is actually unknowable to which I sort of agree.

  6. #96
    TOL Subscriber heir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Ernest View Post
    Since you seem to have a ready answer to your question, why ask me?
    You cited 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV as a proof text.

    I do believe those particular verses carry no implications. I believe Paul is very clear.
    And yet you felt the need to use them for what then? And yes, he is. The holy Spirit through Paul was very deliberate when using the word "unrighteous" so that religious men could not use the verses deceitfully although they continue to try over and over again.
    I don't. I do believe Paul was clear enough without my assistance. Apparently, it's giving you a problem.
    I have a problem when religious men rip these verses out and use them as if to say that those who practice such things cannot enter the kingdom of God. That is exactly what you did. I called you on it.

    I do believe you're attempting to confuse the issue, for what reason I do not know.
    I called you on the misuse of scripture. Now you can refrain from using them in the manner in which you did in the future.
    If you wish to give Bible lectures, you may do so without picking a fight with me.
    I'm not picking a fight. You're the one that used 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV as a proof text, your "final answer". You used it as if it said one thing when in fact, it says another entirely.


    Righteousness is not license.
    For what? And who said it is?
    Well, son, I've studied Scripture for quite some years and don't need to be lectured on the Christianity basics. You may prefer to think of me as just another Biblical illiterate (or target of opportunity) whom you need to inform/educate/convert or whatever, but such isn't the case.
    This is your response to the question, "What must one do to be saved?"? Can you answer the question?
    I don't subscribe to universalism either if that's where you're headed.
    nor do I
    Last edited by heir; October 10th, 2011 at 03:59 PM. Reason: reword a sentence

  7. #97
    Does Whatever A Light-House Can Lighthouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted L Glines View Post
    John 7:24 (NKJV)
    24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

    I think you just answered your own question.
    Of course I did. I was making a point.

    Did you not get that?

    Well, now that I've made it clear, do you know what the point was?

    Quote Originally Posted by alwight View Post
    And if you are wrong about God, His plans and "sin" etc, then they will have missed out on the only life they know they have.
    God isn't wrong, and He is whom with you should concern yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post



    The verse does NOT say:


    The righteous who do these things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


    Great post, heir.
    I'm almost afraid she missed his point.

    The verse does not even say that those who do those things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. It says that those who are those things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. And in v11 we see that those who are righteous are not those things, even if they formerly were. If someone is one of those and they come to God they no longer are what they used to be. And if one is no longer a homosexual then why act like they are? Why commit acts of homosexuality in the flesh? "Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound?" I know you know the answer.


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    Over 4000 post club alwight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by alwight View Post
    And if you are wrong about God, His plans and "sin" etc, then they will have missed out on the only life they know they have.
    God isn't wrong, and He is whom with you should concern yourself.
    Why is that LH, because you say so, because you presume to speak for your God?
    My point was actually about you being fallible and possibly wrong about God, but apparently you and your God are one and the same thing, in your mind anyway.

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    Does Whatever A Light-House Can Lighthouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwight View Post
    Why is that LH, because you say so, because you presume to speak for your God?
    My point was actually about you being fallible and possibly wrong about God, but apparently you and your God are one and the same thing, in your mind anyway.
    I never said anything of the sort, you presumptive twit.

    You have concerned yourself with my fallibility and the possibility I could be wrong. You shouldn't. Why? Because I am fallible, and I could be wrong on a great many things. You should only concern yourself with God, for He is neither fallible or wrong, ever.


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    Over 4000 post club alwight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    I never said anything of the sort, you presumptive twit.

    You have concerned yourself with my fallibility and the possibility I could be wrong. You shouldn't. Why? Because I am fallible, and I could be wrong on a great many things. You should only concern yourself with God, for He is neither fallible or wrong, ever.
    We agree then LH that clearly you, me and everyone else is fallible, and there is nothing very presumptive about that imo.
    What would be presumptive however imo would be in you presuming that you are somehow empowered to speak for God perhaps simply by proxy from words written in the Bible maybe. Those who do not happen to share your own personal or Biblical absolutist views nor think that you speak for God I rather think should be allowed to do so without any interference from you or from any "Christian" Taliban.

    But from what you say here it seems that perhaps you do only offer your own fallible opinion?
    Nevertheless apparently you continue to advocate that practising gays be jailed or even executed while others are denied a chance of living this life in a way that suits them, even though you are fallible and could well be wrong.
    What is not presumptuous about that, twit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alwight View Post
    ...you continue to advocate that [whoever] be jailed or even executed while others are denied a chance of living this life in a way that suits them, even though you are fallible and could well be wrong.
    What is not presumptuous about that, twit?
    content edited

    It's presumptuous to advocate for jailing or executing people who do 'x'? Or is it presumptuous only when x=homosexual fornication?
    And 'living this life in a way that suits them'? Again, presumptuous to deny others this chance only in the case of homosexual fornication or does this apply to all the other myriad instances where we deny people such a 'chance'?

    Assuming you're not willing to call having a criminal justice system of any sort presumptuous, then I can only interpret this as being limited exclusively to homosexual fornication.

    I wonder if you can discern the hypocrisy here.

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    Over 4000 post club alwight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaryContrary View Post
    content edited

    It's presumptuous to advocate for jailing or executing people who do 'x'? Or is it presumptuous only when x=homosexual fornication?
    I'm not quite sure why we can't simply remain specific here without bringing in criminal secular activities, which usually does cause real harm to others and which clearly does call for secular sanctions imo, even at the risk of the occasional regretable miscarriage of justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaryContrary View Post
    And 'living this life in a way that suits them'? Again, presumptuous to deny others this chance only in the case of homosexual fornication or does this apply to all the other myriad instances where we deny people such a 'chance'?
    I see no problem while other people's own preferred way of life is not impinged on.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaryContrary View Post
    Assuming you're not willing to call having a criminal justice system of any sort presumptuous, then I can only interpret this as being limited exclusively to homosexual fornication.

    I wonder if you can discern the irony here.
    You're someone who wants homosexuality between consenting adults criminalised apparently, not me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alwight View Post
    I'm not quite sure why we can't simply remain specific here without bringing in criminal secular activities, which usually does cause real harm to others and which clearly does call for secular sanctions imo, even at the risk of the occasional regretable miscarriage of justice.
    Because a foundational point here would be whether homosexual fornication should be outlawed, by the same rational by which we justly outlaw anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by alwight View Post
    I see no problem while other people's own preferred way of life is not impinged on.
    Another point. Not everything we outlaw necessarily or unarguably impinges on someone else's preferred way of life (or whatever weird way you want to word the general principle you're trying to be so vague about here).


    Quote Originally Posted by alwight View Post
    You're someone who wants homosexuality between consenting adults criminalised apparently, not me.

    So...you fail to recognize hypocrisy and accuse me of it incorrectly. Maybe you should have looked it up in a dictionary or something?

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    Over 4000 post club alwight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaryContrary View Post
    Because a foundational point here would be whether homosexual fornication should be outlawed, by the same rational by which we justly outlaw anything else.
    From a purely secular pov then why even consider it criminal, at least while third parties remain unharmed and uninvolved?
    Of course I can't account for any mental anguish anyone might put themselves through if they rather suspect it is going on and object because of say their personal religious reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaryContrary View Post
    Another point. Not everything we outlaw necessarily or unarguably impinges on someone else's preferred way of life (or whatever weird way you want to word the general principle you're trying to be so vague about here).
    OK then to be more blunt, I think people who object to consenting gay sex are free to not like it or have their religious views, but should ultimately simply butt out of other people's preferred way of life.


    Quote Originally Posted by MaryContrary View Post

    So...you fail to recognize hypocrisy and accuse me of it incorrectly. Maybe you should have looked it up in a dictionary or something?
    How did I fail to do that, if it isn't a secular crime then secular punishment is surely inappropriate?
    I don't suggest you are being hypocritical at all I'm actually saying that you are wrong and intolerant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alwight View Post
    From a purely secular pov then why even consider it criminal, at least while third parties remain unharmed and uninvolved?
    Of course I can't account for any mental anguish anyone might put themselves through if they rather suspect it is going on and object because of say their personal religious reasons.
    Funny. "Religious reason" and presumptuousness and whatnot seemed to have been your objections before. Why are you focusing sharply on the 'victimless crime' argument now?

    Quote Originally Posted by alwight View Post
    OK then to be more blunt, I think people who object to consenting gay sex are free to not like it or have their religious views, but should ultimately simply butt out of other people's preferred way of life.
    So people are free to have a particular opinion on a particular issue as long as they don't express it? Or vote accordingly?

    Seriously?
    Quote Originally Posted by alwight View Post
    How did I fail to do that, if it isn't a secular crime then secular punishment is surely inappropriate?
    Who limited what is appropriate to the secular? What are you on about here?
    Quote Originally Posted by alwight View Post
    I don't suggest you are being hypocritical at all I'm actually saying that you are wrong and intolerant.
    Uh huh.

    -5 credibility

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