Three of This Past Week's School Shootings

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Toast said:
First off, to answer one of your points. When God sends evil against the wicked, that means He is punishing them. I dont think anyone has any problems with God sending punishment against the wicked. Its not evil for the wicked to get whats coming to them, but rather, its good. Though, we should not take vengeance into our own hands,
I agree with your words, I'm just not sure you've thought them through. When Mr. Jones sins, God decides to punish Jones by predestinating Smith to do evil to Jones. God generally then punishes Smith for the evil he did to Jones. In fact, the evil which Jones did in the first place was an evil act against Mr. Brown, predestined by God to punish Mr. Brown for evil he did to Mr. Miller. You can see an example of this in Isaiah 10:5ff. God sends Assyria to destroy Israel, to "tread them down like the mire of the streets" (v.6), actions which are clear violations of God's Law, and hence "sin." Then God punishes Assyria for doing exactly what God "sent" them to do.
Toast said:
that is, we should not individually take the law into our own hands, but as Paul says, God gave that function to the governing authorities, for they are His ministers, for they do not bear the sword in vain; they mete out wrath and vengeance against criminals. I think you misconstrued my position here. I never said there was anything wrong with God punishing the wicked. In fact, I said the opposite. I said, since the wicked oppose God, he punishes them, because He hates them for the evil they do.
I agree with your words, but I'm not sure we mean the same thing by them. God punished Babylon by sending the Medes. Isaiah 13 says:
The soldiers of the Meden army are His "sanctified ones." (v. 3)
The Lord "commands" them.
He calls His "mighty ones." (v. 3)
He musters the armies together. (v. 4)
The armies of the nations
come from the Lord
to destroy the land. (v. 5)
The destroying armies are "the weapons of His indignation" (v. 5).
This is the day of the Lord's "wrath and fierce anger" (vv. 6-9).
The coming destruction is a terror for these evil doers (v. 11).
God is sending a sword to cut them down (v. 15).​
Of course, all of this violence, killing, raping, stealing, pillaging, etc., is in direct violation of God's Commandments, and the Medes are subsequently destroyed for their imperialist invasion. They were "vessels fitted for destruction" (Romans 9:17-21). God created them to sin, predestined them to do evil, in order to judge other evil doers. The fact that God "ordained" the Assyrians and the Medes does not mean that the Assyrian Army is "a divine institution," in the sense of having God's ethical Seal of Approval. Because the Bible commands us to be pacifists, the Bible necessarily commands us to be anarchists. But God is an Archist, and not a pacifist.
Toast said:
But the Bible clearly says that God wants there to be peace, and He takes no pleasure in the death of wicked, and that He opposes evil, and that He would prefer everyone to choose life instead of death, and He wills all to be saved, which makes Him righteous.
We must not confuse what God "wants" (that is, commands US to do), and what God "wants" (that is, predestines to actually happen). God "wanted" Judas to stand up for Christ, not to betray Him; that was God's command for Judas. But in another sense, God "wanted" Judas to betray Christ so that He could shed His blood for the elect, and so God predestined Judas to sin (Luke 22:22).
Toast said:
Next, help me understand if I am interpreting your position correctly Vine. Its okay if God does wrong, because, as you say, He has the authority to, so its not really wrong when He does it, but its wrong when we do it? Is that correct?
Yes, that's correct. God says we are not to take vengeance, but God does so (Romans 12:17-21). And he creates demonic forces to do so (Romans 13; Eph. 6:12; "powers" = demonic).
Toast said:
Your making our God out to look like a being who has double standards when you say He has predestined every immoral thing in the universe, even though the scripture says He hates evil, and such things never even entered His mind, and He commands us not to do these things, because they are wrong.
I'm just saying what the Bible says. I don't believe the Bible is accusing God of having a "double standard" (that is, of doing something wrong, assuming "having a double standard" is wrong. When I was a kid I had to go to bed at 8, when older kids got to stay up till 9. "Double standard?" Sinful?)
Toast said:
Also, I have a theoretical question for you. Isnt it possible for God to be glorified without the existence of evil? Like If, for example, Adam and Eve obeyed God in the garden, and did not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and Satan did not rebel and fall from his beauty, as God originally made him perfect, and no one sinned, and Christ did not have to die for our sins, yet we still loved Him and worshipped Him, wouldnt that have glorified God? If no one sinned, and obeyed His original order to mankind, that is, to not eat of the Tree, and everyone was perfect, and no one had to go to hell, wouldnt they be glorifying God?
Yes, but obviously God decided that predestinating man to sin and then saving man would bring God more glory, because in the end man would admit he was a sinner who freely chose to rebel against a good and holy God, and God was a Savior, who graciously saved beings created in His own Image who chose to rebel against their Creator.
 

BillyBob

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Granite said:
That's not true

Sure it is!

and you should be willing to admit that.

I'll do no such thing. :nono:

Between single parents, working parents, cash-strapped parents, circumstances beyond anyone's control, and the general Stuff Happened factor, having the luxury of removing your children from public school....:blabla:

:yawn:



is not an option every parent has.

Everybody has options, they just often choose the wrong ones.


To say otherwise is flippant and inaccurate.

To deny it is ignorant and smarmy.
 

Toast

New member
I think you got it wrong vine. Being the root cause of man's sin and cure would not bring God more glory. There is a verse in The Bible, "do not do evil so that good may come". What your saying would be like someone burning your house down while your inside, then rescuing you, then giving you the money to rebuild your house. Would you be very thankful to that man? That would seem like a pretty sick individual to me.
 
Toast said:
I think you got it wrong vine. Being the root cause of man's sin and cure would not bring God more glory. There is a verse in The Bible, "do not do evil so that good may come". What your saying would be like someone burning your house down while your inside, then rescuing you, then giving you the money to rebuild your house. Would you be very thankful to that man? That would seem like a pretty sick individual to me.
"Doing evil that good may come" means OUR sinning to get more gracious forgiveness from God (Romans 3:8). But God is powerful and can create evil (Isaiah 45:7) in order to bring about good (Genesis 50:20). God's ways are higher than our ways.

Your analogy is not quite correct. God does not burn our house down, we burn our own house down. Yes, God predestined us to do that, but we were created in His Image, and we freely chose to burn our own house down. In the end (Philip 2:10), we will admit that we burned our own house down and God cannot be blamed for what we did. But He does get the glory for saving us.
 
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