ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
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Philetus
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doogieduff said:
I think the point I'm missing is yours and your missing the boat. If you think my answer supports your view your missing even more. The ONE gospel was no mystery to Jesus the Christ. But the Gospel was a mystery to those who needed it to be revealed to them. That's why he came, spent so much time with those guys, and even at one ponit had to ask, "Have I been with you so long, and you still don't get it?" They needed him to explaine what they had been reading about, hoping for, and like so many, were in danger of missing. They needed clues before the DBR (I hope that's short for death, burial and ress) of Jesus so they could in fact see that it was the same as what God promised from the begining. Revealing the mystery did not change the mystery. What was revealed was not annother or new gospel. The revelation of the mystery changed the 11, changed the hearers at Pentcost and changed Saul. And the bigest change was that the old Pharassee became a Servant of Christ and a new creature. He became the Apostle to guys like us.
The mystery is Christ in you the hope of glory. Not, some new twist on the Gospel.
Hey, in kindness, let me save you some time. I'll never buy into the stuff you have been posting here about salvation being somehow dependant on baptism. I'm a baptized believer. Been there, dunk that, and got a wet tee shirt to prove it. I was saved by grace through faith before that and am thankful for the experience of baptism.
I find it ironic that in a thread titled Open Theology, where I thought everybody would be debating the future, somebody is trying to change the past.
Go figurer.
Philetus
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=978435#post978435
Comments on posts 34-37 (in thread about if God always gets His way) relating to general vs specific sovereignty and why we can be confidant in the future even though God does not control or know it exhaustively. Open Theism believers that God rules providentially and responsively. Hyper-Calvinism views sovereignty as meticulous control.
The relational view does not limit God, but reflects His self-revelation. He is omnicompetent, not omnicontrolling! :think:
Comments on posts 34-37 (in thread about if God always gets His way) relating to general vs specific sovereignty and why we can be confidant in the future even though God does not control or know it exhaustively. Open Theism believers that God rules providentially and responsively. Hyper-Calvinism views sovereignty as meticulous control.
The relational view does not limit God, but reflects His self-revelation. He is omnicompetent, not omnicontrolling! :think:
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Godrulz,
Water may not be able to save anyone, but under John’s ministry baptism was part of the belief requirement. They had to believe and be baptized to be saved. We do not, in this Dispensation of Grace.
the Gospel of John was written after the synoptic gospels. Because the synoptic gospels covered the material that expressed works for salvation very thoroughly, John did not repeat it. When John did cover the other aspects of salvation in addition to belief, he did show the conditions that were in place.
Here are the places that I found conditions other than just belief. I have not found any in Paul’s material.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 8:31-32 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.
John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
Speaking to the Eleven, 12 minus Judas, in John 15:1-10 it says: I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
John 15:14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Water may not be able to save anyone, but under John’s ministry baptism was part of the belief requirement. They had to believe and be baptized to be saved. We do not, in this Dispensation of Grace.
the Gospel of John was written after the synoptic gospels. Because the synoptic gospels covered the material that expressed works for salvation very thoroughly, John did not repeat it. When John did cover the other aspects of salvation in addition to belief, he did show the conditions that were in place.
Here are the places that I found conditions other than just belief. I have not found any in Paul’s material.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 8:31-32 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.
John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
Speaking to the Eleven, 12 minus Judas, in John 15:1-10 it says: I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
John 15:14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Godrulz,
When God brought Israel out of Egypt, circumcision was an essential part of His requirements.
When God instructed Abraham that any of his male descendants not circumcised would be cut off from God's people (Gen. 17:14) it showed that circumcision was necessary for their salvation. It’s amazing that God had not punished Israel before they entered their promised land. God didn’t execute them, but he made them all get circumcised because it hadn’t been practiced during the 40 years in the desert.
Circumcision was absolutely necessary or they would be cut off – killed.
Under Paul’s ministry, he circumcised Timothy, because of the Jews, but he knew it wasn’t necessary any more.
Bob Hill
When God brought Israel out of Egypt, circumcision was an essential part of His requirements.
When God instructed Abraham that any of his male descendants not circumcised would be cut off from God's people (Gen. 17:14) it showed that circumcision was necessary for their salvation. It’s amazing that God had not punished Israel before they entered their promised land. God didn’t execute them, but he made them all get circumcised because it hadn’t been practiced during the 40 years in the desert.
Circumcision was absolutely necessary or they would be cut off – killed.
Under Paul’s ministry, he circumcised Timothy, because of the Jews, but he knew it wasn’t necessary any more.
Bob Hill
Outward badges or signs of faith reflect obedience and genuine love for God. Circumcision or baptism are such outward evidences of saving faith. We cannot reduce faith to mere mental assent. It involves love, knowledge, obedience, trust, surrender, etc. in every dispensation. Outward acts did show inward faith, but were not meritorious in themselves. Judeo-Christianity is relational, not ritualistic like pagan religions. Evidences of surrender to God may vary, but ultimately faith, not works of any kind, appropriate God's grace. It seems to me that Paul argues for faith apart from law, circumcision, baptism, works even in Abraham's day.
We agree to disagree on the nature of saving faith and its relation to outward signs?
We agree to disagree on the nature of saving faith and its relation to outward signs?
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Godrulz,
You wrote:
But John the Baptist did, and he was showing the Messiah.
Mark 1:4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Also, Peter, on the day of Pentecost said they had to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
Acts 2:37,38 “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
In first Peter, we find that water baptism was still necessary for salvation for those of the circumcision.
1 Peter 3:20,21 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us, baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
You wrote:
But John the Baptist did, and he was showing the Messiah.
Mark 1:4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Also, Peter, on the day of Pentecost said they had to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
Acts 2:37,38 “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
In first Peter, we find that water baptism was still necessary for salvation for those of the circumcision.
1 Peter 3:20,21 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us, baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Godrulz,
We see that in the dispensation previous to Paul’s that they did not have the eternal security that we have in this Dispensation of Grace.
John 8:31,32 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
They didn’t abide in Him, and we see the results. In John 8:40-44. They actually turn against Him even though they believed shortly before.
They had to continue to abide in Christ to be saved. John 8:40-44: But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father - God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.
Believing Christ was very important, but they had to continue to believe and also have works, which I will show you in due time.
John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
If the believers, even His disciples, do not abide in Christ, they are cast out and ultimately cast into the lake of fire.
That is what it says in John 15:1-6. This is after Judas has left, in John 13:30. It is just Jesus and the eleven. John 15:1-6 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Under the Circumcision gospel they had to believe, do good works and abide in Christ in order to be saved. John does not have as much of the conditions as the synoptic gospels, but there is enough to see that abiding in Him is mandatory for salvation.
When we look in the synoptic gospels, we see much more of the conditionality of salvation under circumcision. We also see a lot more in the circumcision epistles, starting with Hebrews through Revelation.
When we search Paul’s epistles, we only see security of the believer.
In Christ,
Bob
We see that in the dispensation previous to Paul’s that they did not have the eternal security that we have in this Dispensation of Grace.
John 8:31,32 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
They didn’t abide in Him, and we see the results. In John 8:40-44. They actually turn against Him even though they believed shortly before.
They had to continue to abide in Christ to be saved. John 8:40-44: But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father - God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.
Believing Christ was very important, but they had to continue to believe and also have works, which I will show you in due time.
John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
If the believers, even His disciples, do not abide in Christ, they are cast out and ultimately cast into the lake of fire.
That is what it says in John 15:1-6. This is after Judas has left, in John 13:30. It is just Jesus and the eleven. John 15:1-6 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Under the Circumcision gospel they had to believe, do good works and abide in Christ in order to be saved. John does not have as much of the conditions as the synoptic gospels, but there is enough to see that abiding in Him is mandatory for salvation.
When we look in the synoptic gospels, we see much more of the conditionality of salvation under circumcision. We also see a lot more in the circumcision epistles, starting with Hebrews through Revelation.
When we search Paul’s epistles, we only see security of the believer.
In Christ,
Bob
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Godrulz,
The message of salvation that Christ gave to the apostles was very clear and different from the one the ascended Christ gave to the Apostle Paul.
I hope you can see the difference in the method of salvation in John 15:6 and Acts 2:38. Peter really made it plain on the day of Pentecost. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
In the great commission, Christ emphasized water baptism for salvation. Mark 16:15,16 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Please respond to these passages, especially Acts 2:38.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
The message of salvation that Christ gave to the apostles was very clear and different from the one the ascended Christ gave to the Apostle Paul.
I hope you can see the difference in the method of salvation in John 15:6 and Acts 2:38. Peter really made it plain on the day of Pentecost. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
In the great commission, Christ emphasized water baptism for salvation. Mark 16:15,16 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Please respond to these passages, especially Acts 2:38.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
My friend, Christ does talk about water baptism in John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
We see that John the Baptist baptized to reveal Christ to Israel. God sent John to baptize.
John 1:31-34 “I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.” 32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 “And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill said:
Jn. 3:5, at this point, was not talking about believer's or Christian baptism that followed His death and resurrection. There are several views as to what the water refers to. Believer's baptism is not usually one of them. I think I listed them in a post recently.
Water and the Spirit.
We are surely born of water (as in gestation) to physical form. We are surely born of spirit (soul) as we are all God's children.
Baptism is a remembrance and reminder of our physical origin and accepting the Christ and the Holy Spirit.
We are surely born of water (as in gestation) to physical form. We are surely born of spirit (soul) as we are all God's children.
Baptism is a remembrance and reminder of our physical origin and accepting the Christ and the Holy Spirit.
elected4ever
New member
The purpose of baptism. I think this should be another tread. It is distracting here. I will start one.
Philetus said:
Ok, Philetus, let's look at your "answer" together. Any logical thinker would realize by "answer" that I'm looking for a true attempt in dealing with the important problem, not a "pie in the sky" answer. But if you insist...
Philetus said:
I won't.
You're comparing the gospel to a can of beans?!?! Think about what you're saying. You're saying God in the flesh had some reason for not wanting people to get saved. Unfortunately that's directly contradictory to verses like 1 Tim. 2:4. How about we think outside the box Philetus?! Maybe, let's consider the possibility that Christ commanded His disciples NOT to tell ANYONE that He would die and be resurrected because it was NOT the gospel.
Ok, Philetus, this seems like a valid reason you've come up with, and I can understand (I think) where you're going with this. This deserves a response...I don't think God had any worries about losing His sacrifice. I see that God was quite in control of the events leading to Christ's death. I still think your missing my point. According to covenantalists, people have been looking forward to Christ's death since Genesis 3 for their salvation. If this were the case, when Christ actually did come to die, they would have already knew this was going to happen, and when Christ explained to them that He would die and be resurrected, they would respond, "Yes Lord! We've been waiting for you all along! What can we do to make sure you die on the cross?" Further, if "looking forward to Christ's death on the cross" was the gospel by which man was saved, they wouldn't try and stop it. I know I wouldn't. In Matt. 16, it says Christ began to explain to them that He would be crucified and raised the third day to which Peter replied, "Not so Lord!" He did not want this to happen to Jesus. By your line of reasoning and the many covenantalists' reasoning on this site, Peter COULD NOT have been saved right here. If the gospel was indeed looking forward to Christ's death, Peter was not saved...
If by "telling it all" you mean His DBR, then I cannot find record of Christ commanding His disciples to tell the world of His death, burial, and resurrection. He commands them to baptize the nations, which is exactly what Peter does on the day of pentecost.
The helper was not Paul, if that's what your suggesting. Peter did preach Christ crucified on the day of Pentecost, yet the Holy Spirit DID NOT fall onto them! WHY!?! Because baptism was necessary for salvation, and the 3,000 which were ADDED to the church that was Israel were not added until after they were baptized. In Acts 10 when Peter was preaching Christ crucified to the household of Cornelius, the Holy Spirit fell on them BEFORE Peter ever even mentioned baptism. WHY!?! Because belief was all that was necessary. The Body of Christ started in Acts 9.
What "cat" was already out of the bag? If you say "the mystery", you're wrong, as the mystery was hidden until it was revealed to the apostle Paul. If you say, the gospel (Christ's DBR), then wouldn't it have been "out of the bag" since Gen. 3?!?
Philetus said:
You really have no idea what the mystery is. Paul explains the mystery in Eph. 3, The mystery, which was hidden from ages and generations until it was revealed to the apostle Paul was that that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel. Not until the mystery began to be taught by the ascended Christ to Paul in Acts 9, were Gentiles able to be saved without proselyting to Judaism.
"Christ in you" does not say WHAT the mystery is. Your biggest problem, since you believe the mystery is just the gospel, is explaining how this "mystery" was hidden from ages and generations until it was revealed to the Apostle Paul. Eph. 3:5.
Why were you baptized Philetus? If you say, "outward showing of inward work," then your baptism was unbiblical. Nowhere in scripture is water baptism commanded AFTER salvation. Until Acts 9-10, those saved were saved AFTER water baptism. You can disagree that Israel once had to be water baptized to be saved, but you're left dealing with huge amounts of scripture that say contrary.
Numbers 19
9 Then a man who is clean shall gather up ithe ashes of the heifer, and store them outside the camp in a clean place; and they shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for the water of purification; it is for purifying from sin.
Mark 1
4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mark 16
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved
Acts 2
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
1 Peter 3
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism
Philetus
New member
doogieduff said:
"Can of Beens: a figure of speach ... sorry, I'll try not to throw you any more curves.
If Jesus not wanting Peter to start preaching the gospel before the day of Pntacost when the HELPER, the Holy Spirit not Paul, hit Peter like a ton of beens - I meen bricks, is the same as God not wanting people to get saved then you really have more beens in your bag than I thought. OOPS. sorry I just can't do it. The Mystery Christ in you the hope of glory is what was being reveiled to the gentiles ... guys full of beens like you and me.
The mystery was being revealed to "all flesh" and God in Christ was reconciling the whole world unto himself and using Spirit filled men like Peter and Paul to get it done. God still is using men to reveal what remains a mystery to many. Surely his comand to go preach, teach AND baptize includes today's witnesses to his death, burial and ressurection.
I think the big mystery for you is Christ in Philetus, and I must admit that I find Christ in doggiedug a bit mystifying. What a might God we serve! It's our hope of glory.
I am thinking outside your box. It has too many beens in it for me.
I think the trail of beens leads you to another thread. The cat is indeed out of the thread.
:dog:
Originally Posted by elected4ever
The purpose of baptism. I think this should be another tread. It is distracting here. I will start one.
I have nothing more to say about Baptism here.
Philetus
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