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Thread: Copyright Infringement!

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    TOL Legend drbrumley's Avatar
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    Copyright Infringement!

    To all TOL'ers,

    The topic has come up, and rightfully so, that downloads of music via the Internet is a crime.

    And by what I have read, we all are guilty of copyright infringment. And I'm not talking about music. Do not even post a Bible verse cause your breaking the law. Want proof?


    New King James Bible and a host of others!
    © Copyright 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

    Now if we are going to whine and cry about copyright infringement, I think you better look at the Bible you quote, and apply what you say about downloads to what Bible you quote here.

    God Bless,
    Dave
    Last edited by webby; May 30th, 2003 at 11:00 AM.
    Contrary to what many Americans seem to think, the document we now call "the Constitution" and the Declaration of Independence are not pretty much the same thing or "connected in spirit," or "two sides of the same coin." The two documents were written by two different groups of people at two different times to accomplish two totally different goals.

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    Subscriber frostmanj's Avatar
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    I think we would all agree that the original authors of the books of the Bible died many years ago. Under current law this makes the whole Bible public domain. Unfortunately this also means that it can be reinterpreted and revised by Zondervan.

    FrostmanJ
    "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us; and we beheld His glory." John 1:14

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    TOL Legend drbrumley's Avatar
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    FROST,

    I think we would all agree that the original authors of the books of the Bible died many years ago.
    Thats a given.

    Under current law this makes the whole Bible public domain.
    Really?

    Unfortunately this also means that it can be reinterpreted and revised by Zondervan.
    This is true. The point being made that the revision is Copyrighted and therefore cannot be reproduced without thier approval. Cause the argument is being made that Downloading (Sharing) a file is a criminal act. Under this logic, if someone wants to read my copy of a book, then Im breaking the law by sharing it with them. And that is plain stupid and wrong.
    Contrary to what many Americans seem to think, the document we now call "the Constitution" and the Declaration of Independence are not pretty much the same thing or "connected in spirit," or "two sides of the same coin." The two documents were written by two different groups of people at two different times to accomplish two totally different goals.

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    Subscriber frostmanj's Avatar
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    OK, I see your point. I think someone should scan the whole NIV, put it up for free on the Net, and let the powers that be sue them.

    I can see the Headlines, "Publishing House Sues to Restrict Access to the Bible."

    That ought to be great publicity.

    FrostmanJ
    "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us; and we beheld His glory." John 1:14

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    Journeyman Vitamin J's Avatar
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    The KJV is public domain as is several other versions of the Bible.

    The NKJV and the NIV and other versions are NOT public domain.

    However, you would only be infringing on copyright laws if you posted the entire versions on the net.

    Simply using a verse here or there is the same as allowing listeners to hear a "snippit" of a song.
    Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

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    Some stuff I found on the net----

    New International Version (NIV)
    The NIV may be quoted in any form (written, visual, electronic or audio) up to and inclusive of five hundred (500) verses without the express written permission of the publisher, providing the verses quoted do not amount to a complete book of the Bible nor do the verses quoted account for more than 25 percent (25%) or more of the total text of the work in which they are quoted. For additional rights and permission usage on the NIV Bible please contact Zondervan.

    KJV is not copyrighted, and can be quoted without restriction.
    The Net Bible may be quoted without restriction

    From the Amplified Bible's website:Permission to Quote the Amplified® BibleThe text of the Amplified® Bible may be quoted in any form (written, visual, electronic or audio) up to and inclusive of five hundred (500) verses without express written permission of the publisher, providing the verses do not amount to a complete book of the Bible nor do the verses quoted account for more than 25% of the total work in which they are quoted. The Lockman Foundation - Amplified Bible

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    Over 1000 post club Hilston's Avatar
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    Title 17 ...

    Hi drbrumley. You're quite mistaken and simply overstating the case here. You write:
    And by what I have read, we all are guilty of copyright infringment. And I'm not talking about music. Do not even post a Bible verse cause your breaking the law. Want proof? New King James Bible and a host of others! © Copyright 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
    Just because works are copyrighted does NOT mean we are not allowed to quote them. If that were the case, nearly every research paper in the history of the world would be guilty of theft. You've somehow missed the primary point of the copyright law, which is protection of original authorship.

    Title 17, Chapter, 1 Sec. 102 of the U.S. Code states:

    Copyright protection subsists, in accordance with this title, in original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed, from which they can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device ...
    According to the Fair Use laws, there are provisions made for quoting copyrighted works, both published and unpublished. See below:
    Sec. 107. - Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

    Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include -

    (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

    (2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

    (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

    (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

    The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.
    Here's the Cornell University link if you want to read the whole context.

    http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html

    You can quote me.

    Jim

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    Journeyman .Ant's Avatar
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    Crow has it right - it's okay to freely quote snippets of most translations.
    Attempting to get to the bottom of arguments at TOL since 2000.

    "Love is the fulfillment of the law." - Romans 13:10

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    TOL Legend drbrumley's Avatar
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    Hilston

    Thank you for your contribution. Yes, I am overstating the case, and thats done for a reason.

    Now, in the case of sharing files. Funny thing is I agree with the court's decision on Napster. Napster was ok, noone bothered them UNTIL they accepted advertising dollars. They were making money off the artist's hard work. And that is wrong. And because Napster said, "screw you", thats when the big money came down on them. Now, if I was to download songs and I make my playlist entitled, "80's hits", and then burn them onto CDs and sell them, That is wrong also. I am breaking the law. Same thing goes with VCR's and tapes decks. I record a special event on TV. I turn around and make copies of the event, and sell them. Thats against the law. I am breaking the law. But if a friend asks if I can tape it for him, is that breaking the law? Not at all. The copyright act prevents me from making money on other peoples work. And that is STEALING! And also, the copyright act also says I can't say I wrote or sung a song, or wrote a paper without given the author the recogniction he DESERVES for compiling his/ her work.

    I maybe wrong and will admit Im wrong if I am, but I havent seen a shred of evidence to support it is thievery. If it is theft, then my suggestion is dont loan anyone a book or a CD, cause the person who is borrowing hasnt paid his copyright licence to use the product. Sounds absurd, doesn't it.

    God Bless,
    Dave
    Contrary to what many Americans seem to think, the document we now call "the Constitution" and the Declaration of Independence are not pretty much the same thing or "connected in spirit," or "two sides of the same coin." The two documents were written by two different groups of people at two different times to accomplish two totally different goals.

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    Over 1000 post club Hilston's Avatar
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    Evidence? ...

    Dave,

    In a rational society, we would only need one law against theft: Do not steal another person's property. But because of people like you, Dave, lawyers get rich exploiting the willful density and ignorance of people who say, "But where's a law that says I can't steal THIS?" -- as if there has to be a specific law for every particular piece of property in the universe.

    Dave writes:
    But if a friend asks if I can tape it for him, is that breaking the law? Not at all. The copyright act prevents me from making money on other peoples work.
    Please cite the U.S. code that says this.

    Dave, whether you sell copies, make a profit or not, you are depriving the copyright holders of revenue that comes from the sale of that music. By burning copies for your friends, they no longer have to go out and spend the money; you are stealing.

    Dave writes:
    I maybe wrong and will admit Im wrong if I am, but I havent seen a shred of evidence to support it is thievery.
    You don't need evidence, Dave. All anyone needs is a mind that is rational (i.e. consistently uses logic).

    Dave writes:
    If it is theft, then my suggestion is dont loan anyone a book or a CD, cause the person who is borrowing hasnt paid his copyright licence to use the product. Sounds absurd, doesn't it.
    It sounds absurd because you clearly are missing the point. Loaning someone an existing publication does not deprive the copyright holder of revenue. As soon as you make an illegal copy, you have made it convenient for someone else to NOT buy their own published copy. It's stealing, and you should have to make financial restitution to the copyright holders that you've stolen from.

    I had a friend ask me to burn copies of a set of narrated Bible CDs. The whole set probably costs $60-$70. I told her no. Had I done her this "favor," she would not have had to go out and buy her own set, and the copyright holders for those CDs would have been deprived of the revenue that they are entitled to.

    Jim

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    TOL Legend drbrumley's Avatar
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    In a rational society, we would only need one law against theft: Do not steal another person's property.
    Agreed!!!!!!!

    But because of people like you, Dave, lawyers get rich exploiting the willful density and ignorance of people who say, "But where's a law that says I can't steal THIS?" -- as if there has to be a specific law for every particular piece of property in the universe.
    People like me? I am not saying in any way, shape or form,"But where's a law that says I can't steal THIS?" So before you start attacking, my friend, get to know the whole story about the person you are talking with.

    Dave, whether you sell copies, make a profit or not, you are depriving the copyright holders of revenue that comes from the sale of that music. By burning copies for your friends, they no longer have to go out and spend the money; you are stealing.
    For starters, I don't burn CDS unless I OWN IT and then only to put my original away. I don't burn CDS for friends. I have never been asked to burn a CD for someone.

    Loaning someone an existing publication does not deprive the copyright holder of revenue.
    WRONG!!!!! By loaning said publication, you are depriving the copyright holder. How so, by loaning the said publication, you are taking away what profit the copyright owner is supposed to get by your friend not purchasing it.

    So either way, your depriving the owner by this logic.
    Contrary to what many Americans seem to think, the document we now call "the Constitution" and the Declaration of Independence are not pretty much the same thing or "connected in spirit," or "two sides of the same coin." The two documents were written by two different groups of people at two different times to accomplish two totally different goals.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Yorzhik's Avatar
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    Please note, the following is in light that a good government and good law are in place. If one wants to discuss the current state of copyright as it is in US law, that will be a discussion that flaps in the breeze because current US copyright law (the whole justice system for that matter) is as solid as a tissue in the wind.

    The problem with discussing copyrights is that we first have to decide if ideas are property or not. Ideas can be considered something, but they differ from property-that-is-not-ideas (we'll call it PTINI) in some ways.

    For instance, an idea can be owned by every person on the earth without the person who first thought of it losing the idea. This is contrary to PTINI in that not everyone can necessarily have a copy simply because a copy avails itself.

    PTINI can be destroyed, whereas ideas can be reconstructed perfectly, even if the medium on which they may be recorded is destroyed. And the idea would still be the exact same idea as before. Even if it isn't remembered by anyone currently alive at the time the media was destroyed.

    PTINI has the ability to be valued after it is known. An idea must always be valued before it is known. Because just knowing an idea before the copy restrictions are in place renders it valueless to the person with the idea.

    If an idea cannot be property, then the answer is obvious: All right to make a copy of an idea that is to be made known must be individually negotiated if it is to exist. And laws specifically for copyright in the written law would be arbitrary law, bad law.

    If this takes care of some of the issues, I'll jump in again (if we stay on topic) when we start discussing the nature of contracts, or if I see I didn't make something clear.
    Good things come to those who shoot straight.

    Did you only want evidence you are not going to call "wrong"? -Stripe

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    Over 750 post club Goose's Avatar
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    I wonder what would be the effects of not having intellectual property. It seems like it would be a more efficient system to just have manufacturers pump out tangible products that we can own.

    Intellectual property is a pretty recent judicial innovation isn't it? I bet we could gain some information from learning about the beginning of the U.S. patent office or something similar.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Yorzhik's Avatar
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    Goose, good points. Copyrights and Patents are recent constructs.

    An interesting exercise is to figure out if we would even have property laws if everything physical (including space) could be copied to near or perfect perfection. Don't think to long and hard... the answer is we wouldn't have property laws of that were true.

    The reason we even have property laws (and it is a natural law according to God) is because property is scarce. Ideas are not. So do ideas fit the definition of property?

    It's hard to imagining treating ideas as property (or property as ideas) because it is so hard-core illogical. Everyone would have their copy of the space where they live next to the most popular people, and the popular people would have their copy of their space where they only lived next to their friends. That is the world of copyright and patent.
    Good things come to those who shoot straight.

    Did you only want evidence you are not going to call "wrong"? -Stripe

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    Registered User Sozo's Avatar
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    Since God is creator and ultimately the source of the bible, then it is the NIV who is in copyright infringement. Everyone steals from God.
    I think we would all agree that the original authors of the books of the Bible died many years ago. Under current law this makes the whole Bible public domain. Unfortunately this also means that it can be reinterpreted and revised by Zondervan.
    Don't you mean "misinterpreted" and "devised"?

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