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Thread: Our triune God

  1. #16
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Isn't it absurd, when asked not to post here, they do anyway. As if their own threads aren't enough this one needs hijacking?
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
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    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

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    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    The Trinity is inherently an 'illogical' doctrine, and therein lies its force: no-one in their right natural mind would have thought it up, so given that it takes no glory away from the cross, it is of necessity, true.

    For any doctrine which can be shown to take no glory from Calvary, is necessarily true, and this by virtue of the fact that there is only one way to glorify God, and that is by the one and only Truth who is necessarily God Himself.

    Historically, there has been much manipulation and positioning of words by various denominations and creeds, in order to get the definition of the Trinity right - to get it to 'sit well' in the conscience and the understanding.

    Such lexical attempts have in the main played with the terms "being", "person", "essence", and "personality". This has largely been unfruitful.

    Rather, given the 'illogicality' of it, the doctrine is naturally best defined when expressed in terms which are maximally contradictory and therefore maximally removed from man's dirty little 'rational' mind.

    The Trinity is therefore best defined as follows:

    1. God is one person only, with no severalness about Him whatsoever. Not merely one in cause, but one indivisible single spirit. He is no less an individual and singular person than any human being. There is absolutely no division in Him whatsoever.

    2. God is not one person at all, but comprises 3 completely separate individuals (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit) each of whom are completely God on their own. They are as separate and distinct as any human being is from another, with no overlap whatsoever.

    3. Both (1) and (2) are completely true, at exactly the same time, with neither (1) nor (2) having any more weight or legitimacy than the other.

    The doctrine of the Triniity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colossians View Post
    The Trinity is inherently an 'illogical' doctrine, and therein lies its force: no-one in their right natural mind would have thought it up, so given that it takes no glory away from the cross, it is of necessity, true.

    For any doctrine which can be shown to take no glory from Calvary, is necessarily true, and this by virtue of the fact that there is only one way to glorify God, and that is by the one and only Truth who is necessarily God Himself.

    Historically, there has been much manipulation and positioning of words by various denominations and creeds, in order to get the definition of the Trinity right - to get it to 'sit well' in the conscience and the understanding.

    Such lexical attempts have in the main played with the terms "being", "person", "essence", and "personality". This has largely been unfruitful.

    Rather, given the 'illogicality' of it, the doctrine is naturally best defined when expressed in terms which are maximally contradictory and therefore maximally removed from man's dirty little 'rational' mind.

    The Trinity is therefore best defined as follows:

    1. God is one person only, with no severalness about Him whatsoever. Not merely one in cause, but one indivisible single spirit. He is no less an individual and singular person than any human being. There is absolutely no division in Him whatsoever.

    2. God is not one person at all, but comprises 3 completely separate individuals (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit) each of whom are completely God on their own. They are as separate and distinct as any human being is from another, with no overlap whatsoever.

    3. Both (1) and (2) are completely true, at exactly the same time, with neither (1) nor (2) having any more weight or legitimacy than the other.

    The doctrine of the Triniity.
    [hijack] The orthodox doctrine of the trinity says they all have the same will so in that regard are not 3 persons, only 3 "centers of consiousness," which of course presents problems when we read Jesus not having a will to be crucified and thus submitting his own (obviously) distinct will to that of the (obviously) distinct will of his father. [/hijack]

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    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    I started this thread with this also in mind:
    Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions and genealogies and contentions, and strivings about the Law, for they are unprofitable and vain.
    Tit 3:10 After the first and second warning, reject a man of heresy
    It seems to confirm the contentious nature suspected as I gave clear posting instruction to avoid debate and asked anti-trinitarians not to post.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    God is immaterial (spirit).
    So the three that are one, they must also be immaterial.

    The image of the Father is immaterial; the Word. The Father and the Word are one.
    The image of the Word is immaterial; the Holy Spirit. The Word and the Holy Spirit are one.

    The image of the Holy Spirit is material.
    All life is the image of the Holy Spirit, which is the image of the Word, which is the image of the Father.

    God is triune, as the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.
    The Father's image is the Word.
    The Word's image is the Holy Spirit.
    The Holy Spirit's image is life.
    The Word's image is creation.
    The Father's image is Jesus.
    God's image is man.

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    The Trinity
    Wm Tipton

    Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
    To show that Jesus IS God and to show that the Holy Spirit IS God and therefore the Trinity teaching is scriptural truth.

    Supporting Evidence

    1.0
    Is Jesus God ?

    John shows us who Jesus is; the Word who is with God and is God.
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    The same was in the beginning with God.

    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
    For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
    (Joh 1 KJV)

    Isaiah shows us exactly who Jesus is.

    Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
    And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
    (Joh 20:28 MKJV)

    Yet Jesus is distinct from the Father...
    -The Father knows what the Son does not;
    But concerning that day and the hour, no one knows, not the angels, those in Heaven, nor the Son, except the Father.
    (Mark 13:32 LITV)
    But the Father has given to the Son to judge;
    For the Father judges no one, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
    (Joh 5:22)
    ...showing clear distinction between them.

    And there is distinction between the Son and the Spirit;
    And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven.
    (Luk 12:10)

    "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men. And whoever says a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the coming one.
    (Mat 12:31-32)
    Whomever blasphemes the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven.
    This proves conclusively that there IS some distinction.


    The pre-existence of Jesus

    And now, O Father, glorify Me alongside Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
    (Joh 17:5 EMTV)

    What then if you should see the Son of Man ascending where He was before?
    (Joh 6:62 EMTV)

    And no one has gone up into heaven except He who came down out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.
    (Joh 3:13 EMTV)

    I came forth from the Father and I have come into the world. Again, I am leaving the world and I am going to the Father."
    (Joh 16:28 EMTV)


    1.5
    For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
    (Colossians 2:9 EMTV)



    Godhead
    G2320
    θεότης
    theotēs
    Thayer Definition:
    1) deity
    1a) the state of being God, Godhead


    G2320
    θεότης
    theotēs
    theh-ot'-ace
    From G2316; divinity (abstractly): - godhead.
    REGARDLESS of how the word theotes was RENDERED, its MEANING and INTENT is 'divinity'...ie Jesus Christ is DIVINE...ie a DEITY....ie GOD.
    If Jesus IS God yet Jesus does NOT KNOW the day and hour of His return but ONLY the Father does (aka GOD) then there MUST BE some DISTINCTION between them...even tho BOTH ARE God.


    2.0
    Is the Holy Spirit 'God' ?

    Scripture shows that the Spirit of GOD came down upon Christ...
    And having been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon Him.
    (Mat 3:16 EMTV)
    And Luke shows that this IS the Holy Spirit.
    and the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came out of heaven, saying, "You are My beloved Son; in You I have found delight."
    (Luk 3:22 EMTV)
    Thus the evidence shows that the 'Spirit of God' and the 'Holy Spirit' are one and the same.

    3.0
    And here we tie it all together.
    And having been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon Him. And behold, a voice came out of the heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I have found delight."
    (Matthew 3:16-17 EMTV)
    1. Jesus, the Son who is called 'Mighty God' in Isaiah.
    2. The Spirit descending in the form of a dove, who is the Spirit OF God.
    3. The Father speaking from heaven, obvious enough.
    Wm Tipton
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    1 John 5:

    [7]
    "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

    So three absolutely distinct persons with no overlap whatsoever (hence the scholars' capitalisation of their titles), who are at the same time, one person with no segregation of persons whatsoever, for it is said that they are "one".

    That this "one" which the three are, does not merely relate "one in agreement", but rather, "one existentially", is born out in the fact that, when referring to a parallel on earth using three closely related substances - the spirit, the water and the blood - John realises these cannot be said to be one, but declares them to merely "agree in one". So:

    [8] "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

    That is, the "one" of v7 is tacitly declared to mean "one existentially", by virtue of the fact that John could find no exact parallel on earth, indicating such by his deliberate and cognitive use of the (mere) "agree in one" for the things on earth.

    And so the three who are each independently one existentially on their own (which is forced by the simple mentioning of them as distinct persons with distinct titles), are at exactly the same time together one existentially, with no severalness whatsoever.

    Which is in accord with what I have pointed out at post 17: the Trinity is best defined when it is maximally self-contradictory.




    The Father greater than the Son, and yet the Son equal with the Father.

    Many think that Jesus' referring to the Father as being greater than He (the Son), was simply by virtue of Jesus' being in the flesh and having therefore left His glory behind for a season: they think of it as a temporary situation.

    But rather, Jesus was referring to the eternal state of things: the Father is forever greater than the Son by virtue of His being the Father and not the Son: fathers are called "fathers" for a reason: they were there first, and gave birth to their sons.

    And so we see in scripture that the Father plucked the Son out of His bosom:

    "Why withdrawest thou thy hand, even thy right hand? pluck it out of thy bosom." (Ps 74:11).

    And yet we note a very important clue as to the perpetuality of this (i.e. that it is not temporal in substance, but logical, therefore negating any idea that the Son is not as eternal as the Father), for that which the Father plucks out, is the right hand, and the right hand, speaks to authority.

    That is, just as it never can be the case that the Father exist without authority, even so it can never be the case that the Father exist without the Son. The Son, therefore, is what we call "eternally begotten", which is to say: "born of the Father and yet never being unborn".

    And in fact therein lies the equality of the Son with the Father. For the right hand of authority, is only known to be so by virtue of its power, and it is declared of Christ that He is the wisdom and power of God.

    That is, although the Father is greater than the Son by virtue of first principles (as outlined above), the Son is neverthless completely equal with the Father in that He demonstrates the Father perfectly and exhaustively.

    We might therefore say, and using a linguistic paradigm, that the Father is the semantic, and the Son the pragmatic.

    And so just as when Paul says of the dispensing of grace: "to the Jew first and also to the Gentile", he intends not "to the Jew first and secondly to the Gentile", but rather, "to the Jew first and also first to the Gentile", so too in like fashion we will ascribe Godhood to the Father first, and also first to the Son.

    And given that we only know this to be so, by virtue of being told it by the Holy Spirit, we will necessarily also say, but this time by permission: "and also first to the Holy Spirit".

    "By permission", we say, because the preeminent distinguishing characteristic of the Third Person, is that He never speaks of Himself, but only of Jesus and His Father. So the wonderfulness of His ministry.

    Praise God.
    Last edited by Colossians; May 21st, 2011 at 05:47 PM.

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    Over 1500 post club Krsto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I started this thread with this also in mind:

    It seems to confirm the contentious nature suspected as I gave clear posting instruction to avoid debate and asked anti-trinitarians not to post.
    Well this sure is a boring thread you've got here Lon. I suggest we start a new invitation only trinity discussion thread, 3 or 4 of the most knowledgable and reasonable on each side. I suggest csuguy (who actually is Arian) and Pierac if he can keep from being strident, and myself on one side. I don't know who to suggest on your side but each of us would have to approve of the members and I would not approve of godrulz as he is a lousy debater. I'm not sure about AMR, I've never in the over one year I've been here seen him actually engage in a discussion so I don't know if he is capable.

    Whadayathink?

  10. #24
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krsto View Post
    Well this sure is a boring thread you've got here Lon. I suggest we start a new invitation only trinity discussion thread, 3 or 4 of the most knowledgable and reasonable on each side. I suggest csuguy (who actually is Arian) and Pierac if he can keep from being strident, and myself on one side. I don't know who to suggest on your side but each of us would have to approve of the members and I would not approve of godrulz as he is a lousy debater. I'm not sure about AMR, I've never in the over one year I've been here seen him actually engage in a discussion so I don't know if he is capable.

    Whadayathink?
    He is certainly capable (more qualified than I actually). A One on One in the Battle Ring with him, if he's up for it, would get my vote. I agree with you that it needs a cogent and stellar discussion.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Over 1500 post club Krsto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    He is certainly capable (more qualified than I actually). A One on One in the Battle Ring with him, if he's up for it, would get my vote. I agree with you that it needs a cogent and stellar discussion.
    Who else ya got?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Isn't it absurd, when asked not to post here, they do anyway. As if their own threads aren't enough this one needs hijacking?
    They are guests on an evangelical forum. They are being disruptive and should be banned for a season. Their Arian views were condemned centuries ago as heretical.

    The triune view is biblical, historical, orthodox Christianity. It is a glorious truth attacked by Satan through pseudo-Christian cults like Mormonism, JWs, Unitarians, Christadelphians, etc.

    Oneness groups are also divisive and guilty, but at least they strongly promote the Deity of Christ, the salvific truth.

    AMR is the man (my feewings are hurt that I am a lousy debater).

    It can be shown from Scripture that there is only one true God by nature. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is personal/God. It can also be shown that the Father is not the person of the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father.

    The trinity is the only way to explain the biblical parameters of God's self-revelation.

    If we agree on monotheism, then the personality of the Holy Spirit and the Deity of Christ should be established first (it is too big a jump for the whole trinity understanding for some people). We can also easily handle the classic Arian objections that JWs use (Col. 1:15 firstborn; Rev. 3:14 begining; Jn. 14:28 greater; Prov. 8 wisdom; I Cor. 15 subject; I Cor. 11 head; Jn. begotten, etc.).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Over 1500 post club Krsto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    They are guests on an evangelical forum. They are being disruptive and should be banned for a season. Their Arian views were condemned centuries ago as heretical.

    The triune view is biblical, historical, orthodox Christianity. It is a glorious truth attacked by Satan through pseudo-Christian cults like Mormonism, JWs, Unitarians, Christadelphians, etc.

    Oneness groups are also divisive and guilty, but at least they strongly promote the Deity of Christ, the salvific truth.

    AMR is the man (my feewings are hurt that I am a lousy debater).

    It can be shown from Scripture that there is only one true God by nature. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is personal/God. It can also be shown that the Father is not the person of the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father.

    The trinity is the only way to explain the biblical parameters of God's self-revelation.

    If we agree on monotheism, then the personality of the Holy Spirit and the Deity of Christ should be established first (it is too big a jump for the whole trinity understanding for some people). We can also easily handle the classic Arian objections that JWs use (Col. 1:15 firstborn; Rev. 3:14 begining; Jn. 14:28 greater; Prov. 8 wisdom; I Cor. 15 subject; I Cor. 11 head; Jn. begotten, etc.).
    So who's more divisive grulz, the one spouting his doctrines yet accepting others as their brothers in Christ or the one spouting his doctrines and calling those who disagree non-Christians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krsto View Post
    So who's more divisive grulz, the one spouting his doctrines yet accepting others as their brothers in Christ or the one spouting his doctrines and calling those who disagree non-Christians?
    Jesus is the dividing line. Those who worship Him as God are Christians; those who say he is a mere creature are cultists. This is an essential, salvific issue. The person and work of Jesus divides in this case.

    As for fellow Christians who oppose cultists, our disagreements over peripheral issues come from a spirit of love and unity based on our common faith in Christ. We are not compromising essential, Christian-defining truth. We are disagreeing over peripheral issues that do not affect our relationship with God or each other.

    A Christian and a cultist have a common humanity under God, but we are not both in the family of God if we have diametrically opposed, mutually exclusive Christologies on the basic points.

    Guys like csuguy simply cannot understand that there is a difference between a true vs false gospel, the true Christ vs counterfeit Christs, a genuine coin and a counterfeit, worthless coin.

    Don't ask me to compromise truth for a false view of luv.

    Lon and I vehemently disagree about Calvinism vs Open Theism, yet we will defend the trinity/Deity of Christ to the death. You and I/Lon disagree about the trinity/Deity and will remain divided because we both cannot claim to be true Christians (one is, one is not). I have love and respect and unity with Lon. I have love for you, but not a common bond in Christ.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Jesus is the dividing line. Those who worship Him as God are Christians; those who say he is a mere creature are cultists. This is an essential, salvific issue. The person and work of Jesus divides in this case.

    As for fellow Christians who oppose cultists, our disagreements over peripheral issues come from a spirit of love and unity based on our common faith in Christ. We are not compromising essential, Christian-defining truth. We are disagreeing over peripheral issues that do not affect our relationship with God or each other.

    A Christian and a cultist have a common humanity under God, but we are not both in the family of God if we have diametrically opposed, mutually exclusive Christologies on the basic points.

    Guys like csuguy simply cannot understand that there is a difference between a true vs false gospel, the true Christ vs counterfeit Christs, a genuine coin and a counterfeit, worthless coin.

    Don't ask me to compromise truth for a false view of luv.

    Lon and I vehemently disagree about Calvinism vs Open Theism, yet we will defend the trinity/Deity of Christ to the death. You and I/Lon disagree about the trinity/Deity and will remain divided because we both cannot claim to be true Christians (one is, one is not). I have love and respect and unity with Lon. I have love for you, but not a common bond in Christ.
    Those that speak in tongues are not in the Body of Christ.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Nick M For Your Post:

    Tambora (October 29th, 2017)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    Those that speak in tongues are not in the Body of Christ.
    Paul was not in the Body of Christ?! Have you finally given up MAD? Good for you. There are probably men of God that you quote and admire who speak in tongues. Good thing you are not Judge Jesus (being judge judy does not count, godplayer).

    The charismatic work of the Spirit was evidenced in the OT, in the life and ministry of Jesus, in the early church, yet you think it/He is irrelevant for the Church Age?! Talk about a false teacher.

    There is no exegetical basis for cessationism (nor KJV-only, nor MAD).

    Why has it been so quiet on TOL? It has got boring. The only thing happening in the anti-trinitarians.

    I see you weren't raptured either. I guess we did not do enough good works?
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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