Biblical Pool of Siloam Is Uncovered
- Thread starter Nineveh
- Start date
Nineveh
Merely Christian
allsmiles said:
It boils down to what you want to accept at this point doesn't it?
Do you still hold to the belief 30+ other gods have ever claimed to do as Jesus did? There is absolutely no proof whatsoever for that belief. Here you have physical evidence yet one more place mentioned as historical fact in Scripture has been unearthed. That doesn't shock you, and shouldn't. In a book so accurate about historical things, what else could it be right about?
Where exactly to you suppose Odysseus was when he came across the scylla and charybdis?
We know Jesus knew of the Pool of Siloam. (John 9)
allsmiles
New member
Nineveh said:
of course, you cannot prove that fiction actually happened, that's preposterous and I have never claimed that 30+ divinities performed comparable acts to the alleged deeds of christ. i have maintained that it has been argued that 30+ deities have been recorded and they were all purported to have performed miracles. did any of them exist? no, I don't believe they actually existed or performed miracles, and that is the point
we don't know because there's no such thing as evidence supporting theology or the divinity of christ.
No, you know that the author knew of the Pool of Siloam.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
allsmiles said:of course, you cannot prove that fiction actually happened, that's preposterous and I have never claimed that 30+ divinities performed comparable acts to the alleged deeds of christ. i have maintained that it has been argued that 30+ deities have been recorded and they were all purported to have performed miracles. did any of them exist? no, I don't believe they actually existed or performed miracles, and that is the point
Really?
allsmiles said:
And still not one of those deities is willing to step up to help you out on this. You hold on to that belief with absolutely no evidence to support it.
...even if a man were raised from the dead....
So Jesus really didn't say that to all those winesses?
I would have to say your comment, "it's not that i'm disinterested in the evidence" is a falsehood.
Interesting that you say that. Actually it is the existence of God that must be presupposed before you even can have the ability to rationally evaluate the evidence that you falsely claim interest in.allsmiles said:
In other words, you pretend to come from a position that is neutrally skeptical (i.e. faithless) and attempt to evaluate the evidence from that neutral position on the basis of logic and reason. The problem is, there is no such neutral position that is rational. Unless you begin with God (logically presuppose His existence) then you have no ground upon which to establish the varisity of your own reasoning abilities. Any attempt to do so will beg the question and will therefore be irrational.
You cannot prove that God exists by first assuming that He does not and evalutating the evidence because all such evaluation is irrational and therefore self-defeating. If, on the otherhand, God's existence is presupposed, one can verify his existence in an almost countless number of ways. The evidence that He exists is literally everywhere you look, indeed the very fact that you have the ability to look at all is evidence itself. But to begin from the point of view of the skeptic, you poke your own eyes out and make it impossible to see anything.
Resting in Him,
Clete
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allsmiles
New member
Nineveh said:
really. it has been argued that 30+ deities performed comparable miracles within the realm of myth. i've never argued that prometheus or mithra were factual, historical figures outside of the realm of myth. i have argued from what i have read that these myths with comparable miracles exist.
i made a mistake in how i presented my case, i understand how sensitive you folks are when it comes to semantics.
no, they aren't, because they never existed outside of the realm of myth. i only know what i read Nin, and that is what i've read.
sorry, but it's a physical impossibility. the only evidence you have for the resurrection of the dead is what is contained in writing, written by someone you don't know, haven't met, can't meet, can't interrogate. all you can do is take their word for it. that's a little thin in comparison to the physical possibility (or lack thereof) of human resurrection from the dead.
how am i supposed to know? i wasn't there, i wasn't listening, all we can do is read what someone else wrote thousands of years ago, god knows what his alterior motives are. you give them the benefit of the doubt through faith, i take it with a grain of salt because it's a stretch.
i couldn't really care less.
i'm interested in evidence, but you have yet to provide evidence for human resurrection from the dead, walking on water, turning water to wine, spontaneous healing of physical ailments such as palsy, hemorraging, blindness, etc. you have yet to provide evidence for the divinity of christ as well. i have no evidence to be interested in.
the pool siloam proves that whoever wrote the gospel according to john knew that the pool existed and incorporated it into the narrative. that's evidence for the validity of the author's knowledge of local geography and landmarks, but beyond that it doesn't support anything, and you folks have admitted that, and i accepted it.
i said i was going to sit back and watch.
allsmiles
New member
Clete said:
so the leap of faith has to be made before you can begin believing it on a rational level?
i love being called a liar by someone who doesn't know anything about me and presupposes that i'm automatically wrong because we disagree. fella, you don't know me, you don't see through my eyes, why dontcha knock it off and treat me like a person?
no, you're wrong.
not necessarily. before my little vacation into the lazy realm of atheism i believed in a creator god, just not yours.
i understand, but you must understand, an atheist does not seek to prove that god exists, he does not and moves on to support that conclusion. i've never met an atheist who seeks to prove that god exists.
this makes sense, if you believe god exists and look for evidence that supports that assertion, you'll find it.
fine, i have a one on one with doc whenever the battle royal is over and it's about the nature of god, so i'll go back to being an agnostic just to make my side a little more logical.
i agree, again, that there is a creator god.
what leads you to believe that it is the christian god?
Letsargue
New member
allsmiles said:
---allsmiles--- WWWOOOOOOWWW!!!!!!!!--
*
--- You're worse off than I though. You haven't studied the Book hardly at all. And you pretend to be some kind of wise man in the knowledge of God? Don't even try to make me laugh now. Well!, I can't help it now, you are a laugh......
*
---------------Paul---
*
Letsargue
New member
allsmiles said:
---allsmiles----Who cares if you believe anything now or not, you've done showed, your a trouble maker. I don't care if you think flying saucers did it. I, to this day haven't asked you a single question, nor have many other Christians. We spend all our time trying to scoop the steff of the screen.
*
---------------Paul---
*
Yes, precisely! Although I know for a fact, based on this post that I am responding to, that you have no idea what that actually means.allsmiles said:
What have I said in the portion that you quoted that isn't true? I haven't attacked you or said anything that I don't believe to be completely true. If you would like for me to be needlessly personal and harsh, I can be, but I hardly think it necessary.
I understand that you deny being disinterested in evidence but it has been shown more than once already that this is in fact the case and even if it hadn't been shown, I know that it is true based not only on your responses here on this thread but on responses in other threads as well.
But don't feel badly, it's not like you're alone. The same is true of all atheists, it comes with the territory, although, again, I don't expect you to understand what I mean or how I know that, nor am I willing to explain it to you. You wouldn't believe me if I did, which is precisely the same reason it is a waste of time to present you with any evidence of anything contrary to what you want to believe. You not only don't have the logical tools necessary to rationally evaluate that evidence, you wouldn't do so even if you could (which you can't).
Saying it doesn't make it so. It has been proven that logic does not work unless you presuppose the existence of God and base your logic on that presupposition. ALL OTHER OPTIONS result in what you would call circular reasoning but it actually is more accurately referred to as begging the question. For example if you, as does every atheist, insist that all truth claims be verified through logic and reason only then you can readily see how quickly things break down for you when asked how you verify the truth claim that states that all truth claims must be verified through logic and reason. If you say that this truth claim is not exempt and must itself be verified though logic and reason then you beg the question by assuming the varacity of that which you are attempting to verifiy. If, on the other hand, you exempt that truth claim from logical verification then you violate the truth claim itself. It is a trap you cannot escape unless you presuppose the existence of a God who is both intelligent and logical.
Yes necessarily. It is an absolute logical necessity. It is not necessary to be aware of what you are doing or what the consequences are of your beliefs from a philosophical point of view for those philosophical consequences to be real. In other words, you don't have to know that you are being irrational in order to be irrational or vise versa. Sticking your head in the sand doesn't make reality go away.
I didn't say that you did. I said that you attempt to evaluate evidence from a neutrally skeptical perspective. And that is precisely what you attempt to do whether you think you do or not. Your problem is that no such neutral position rationally exists, thus God must exist because of the rational impossibility of the contrary.
You do not understand what I am getting at. I am not saying that you assume a conclusion and then go looking for evidence. I am not making the scientific error that many creation scientists are regularly accused of making. I am talking in terms of what is and is not rationally possible, it's not simple wishful thinking and grasping for straws. If you think that, you do not understand my point at all.
Agnosticism doesn't help you because you will still attempt to evaluate the evidence as though you don't need God to account for your own ability to think much less logically evaluate evidence that God exists.
I predict that the doc will lose the debate based on the fact that simply agreeing to have it presents you with tools that you have not established your right to use. Before I agreed to such a debate I would make you first establish for me where logic came from and how you know that it works. How do you know anything for that matter? How do you know for an absolute verifiable fact that you aren't a disembodied brain in a vat sitting on some mad scientist's shelf on a planet somewhere in the vicinity of Betelgeuse?
The fact that the contrary is rationally impossible.
If you mean what you've said here and this is a genuine question please listen to the following debate. Perhaps you will begin to understand what it is I'm getting at here.
The Great Debate: Does God Exist - Dr. Greg Bahnsen vs. Dr. Gordon Stein
Resting in Him,
Clete
P.S. I've just discovered that the above link no longer has the audio available for that debate. If you or anyone is interested in hearing it, let me know and I'll see if I can email it to you.
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Clete;Clete said:
Allsmilies;
Everyone;
I have found Christ!
He's not who you think he is.
It's a long read.
Maybe 20 minutes.
It's the last thing you need to read about Jesus.
http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0480Barabbas.html
It all makes sense now.