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Thread: About who does Isaiah 53 speak?

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    Over 1500 post club Elia's Avatar
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    About who does Isaiah 53 speak?

    Bs'd

    Shalom Friends!

    Can anybody maybe tell me about who Isaiah 53 speaks?


    Thanks in advance,


    Eliyahu

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    Over 1000 post club Dena's Avatar
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    I guess nobody wants to play this game. You'll get more response if you put it out in the open instead of in the Back Alley.

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    Over 1500 post club Elia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dena View Post
    I guess nobody wants to play this game. You'll get more response if you put it out in the open instead of in the Back Alley.
    Bs'd

    The problem is that the other forum is for Christians only:

    "Exclusively Christian Theology (17 Viewing)
    This forum is exclusively for those who consider themselves Christian and consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God."


    Eliyahu

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    LIFETIME MEMBER steko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elia View Post
    Bs'd

    Shalom Friends!

    Can anybody maybe tell me about who Isaiah 53 speaks?


    Thanks in advance,


    Eliyahu
    I'm posting to let you know that I'm not ignoring your thread.
    It's just that you already know who I believe it is and I already know who you believe it is.
    Peace

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    Over 1500 post club Elia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steko View Post
    I'm posting to let you know that I'm not ignoring your thread.
    It's just that you already know who I believe it is and I already know who you believe it is.
    Peace
    Bs'd

    But you as a Christian have an obligation to point out to me why I am wrong, and why you are right, and make a good upright Christian out of me.

    So go ahead and give me all your arguments and proofs as to why Isaiah 53 speaks about JC.



    Eliyahu

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    Over 1000 post club Dena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elia View Post
    Bs'd

    The problem is that the other forum is for Christians only:

    "Exclusively Christian Theology (17 Viewing)
    This forum is exclusively for those who consider themselves Christian and consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God."


    Eliyahu
    You can put it in the open Religion forum. Everyone is allowed to post there.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER steko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elia View Post
    Bs'd

    But you as a Christian have an obligation to point out to me why I am wrong, and why you are right, and make a good upright Christian out of me.

    So go ahead and give me all your arguments and proofs as to why Isaiah 53 speaks about JC.



    Eliyahu
    It is absolutely impossible for me to make you a good 'and' upright Christian, to make you a good 'or' upright Christian, or to make you a Christian at all.
    I would hope and pray that you would come to the knowledge of Israel's promise Messiah, but that's between you and Him.
    I may discuss Is 53 with you at some point, but not at the moment.

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    TOL Legend genuineoriginal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elia View Post
    Bs'd

    But you as a Christian have an obligation to point out to me why I am wrong, and why you are right, and make a good upright Christian out of me.

    So go ahead and give me all your arguments and proofs as to why Isaiah 53 speaks about JC.



    Eliyahu
    Here you go.
    Enjoy reading it.
    Isaiah 53
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Over 1500 post club Elia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Here you go.
    Enjoy reading it.
    Isaiah 53
    Bs'd

    Thank you, at last something I can sink my teeth into.

    The vast majority of that text is devoted to saying: "The rabbis say that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah!"

    That's a kind of weird, that a Christian bases his religion on the opinion of the rabbis.

    And of course, practically all rabbis believe that Isaiah 53 speaks about the people of Israel.

    There may have been some dissenting opinions, but they of course do not change the facts.

    Just like the fact that there are Christian ministers who admit that Isaiah 53 speaks about Israel, some rabbis saying it speaks about the messiah doesn't change the facts.

    Read here more about those rabbis and Isaiah 53: http://mountzion.freewebpage.org/Is53.html

    The rest of the argument there is saying why the suffering servant cannot be Israel. Here is the first argument:

    "Why Isaiah 53 cannot refer to the nation of Israel, or anyone else, but must be the Messiah"

    "1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: "Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!""

    Hmm.... I've never seen the servant being described as an "innocent and guiltless sufferer."

    Can anybody tell me where that is written in Isaiah 53?

    And than it says: "What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"

    I think that fits beautifully with Israel, about whom it is written: "The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid." Zeph 3:13

    Doesn't that fit beautifully with Isaiah 53?

    Also, the claim is this: "Why Isaiah 53 cannot refer to the nation of Israel, or anyone else, but must be the Messiah"

    I see how they try to disqualify Israel, but how would that proof that it speaks about the messiah? If it is not Israel, than that doesn't proof that it must automatically be JC. It could be the whole rest of world population.

    Muslims claim it is Mohammed. So where is the proof that is should be JC?



    Eliyahu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elia View Post
    Bs'd

    Thank you, at last something I can sink my teeth into.

    The vast majority of that text is devoted to saying: "The rabbis say that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah!"

    That's a kind of weird, that a Christian bases his religion on the opinion of the rabbis.
    I provided the link because you are listed as Jewish, so you would be more familiar with the modern Rabbinic teaching that Isaiah 53 is about Israel. What you may not have been familiar with is what the Jewish sages thought before Yeshua HaMoschiach came, because they changed the interpretation after He came.

    Can you provide a good explanation on why the Jewish sages changed the interpretation after Yeshua came?
    Can you provide a good explanation on why Isaiah 53 is no longer read in the synogogue?
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    I provided the link because you are listed as Jewish, so you would be more familiar with the modern Rabbinic teaching that Isaiah 53 is about Israel. What you may not have been familiar with is what the Jewish sages thought before Yeshua HaMoschiach came, because they changed the interpretation after He came.

    Can you provide a good explanation on why the Jewish sages changed the interpretation after Yeshua came?
    Bs'd

    Can you give some proof that the interpretation of Isaiah 53 has been changed after the coming of JC?

    If you cannot give that, then there is no use trying to give an explanation for something which didn't happen.

    Can you provide a good explanation on why Isaiah 53 is no longer read in the synogogue?
    No, because Isaiah 53, just like the vast majority of Isaiah, has never been read in the synagogue.



    Eliyahu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dena View Post
    You can put it in the open Religion forum. Everyone is allowed to post there.
    Bs'd

    I think I finally figured it out. That closed Christian forum is a separate forum, and in deed I should be able to post in the Open Religion Forum.

    So I'll be moving there, a lot more traffic there.

    I'll try to keep on attending to these debates here.


    Eliyahu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elia View Post
    Isaiah 53, just like the vast majority of Isaiah, has never been read in the synagogue.

    Eliyahu
    Some of Isaiah has been read in the synagogues. See years 1, 2, and 3.

    http://www.messianic.ws/midrash.htm
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Untellectual View Post
    Some of Isaiah has been read in the synagogues. See years 1, 2, and 3.

    http://www.messianic.ws/midrash.htm
    Bs'd

    And like I said: The vast majority was and is not.



    Eliyahu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elia View Post
    Bs'd

    And like I said: The vast majority was and is not.

    Eliyahu
    The entire Torah was every three years. The prophets followed the Torah portion. I guess I can't say the entirety of the prophets.
    Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1

    1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
    :א בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ

    In beginning He created God the heavens and the earth

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