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Thread: The virgin birth in Isaiah 7

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    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    I already gave you access to at least 2 articles(pdfs) by Uri Yoseph thoroughly covering the translation issues of the particular passage, so one could weigh the evidences for translating the word in question as 'virgin'. If you'd like to address any particular points, you're welcome to engage. You're apparently unaware of the problems involved, having not read the facts (the words being used, Septuagint factors, reliance on available texts, translation-issues from one language to another, etc.) Ignorance is a choice in this matter, but suit yourself.


    pj

    It doesn’t matter what some man says on his own, and just because you support him, has nothing to do with (( What we do have ))!!

    If God has allowed us to receive something that cannot be depended on 100%, then there’s no way God can condemn anyone!!
    If you’re right, then there is nothing that can be trusted to be the Truth!! – I’ll stick with what (( has been given us to have, and to trust ))!!! – You all can trust anything that fits your own doctrine. – I’m sure every false ~christian~ can find something somewhere that they will follow in part!! There is no one who ( can follow that which is the Christ )!!!

    Paul – 071312
    ---Gal. 4:16.
    ---"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth"???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letsargue View Post
    It doesn’t matter what some man says on his own, and just because you support him, has nothing to do with (( What we do have ))!!
    Its not just some man, its a thorough objective analysis of the text itself. Until you honestly examine the papers, and do even more research, your view remains imperfect, no matter how sincere your 'faith' is in your 'belief'.

    If God has allowed us to receive something that cannot be depended on 100%, then there’s no way God can condemn anyone!!
    You're assuming the bible as a collection of books is inerrant untainted without human imperfections, but that is a long shot. Dependence on a vigilent intelligence ever researching and learning is a more honorable endeavor than settling for such archaic assumptions.

    If you’re right, then there is nothing that can be trusted to be the Truth!! – I’ll stick with what (( has been given us to have, and to trust ))!!!
    Thats an unnecessary assumption. Truth is what actually exists, what is always already the case, the total reality of existence itself, as it IS. Your belief in the Bible or any other collection of books for that matter (whatever your religious persuasion) is a relative assessment, assumed to be 'true' by whatever criteria you've accepted. Again, reality is what actually, essentially and fundamentally exists as that which subsumes and pervades All That Is......what is unborn, undying, eternal, inifinite.

    – You all can trust anything that fits your own doctrine. – I’m sure every false ~christian~ can find something somewhere that they will follow in part!! There is no one who ( can follow that which is the Christ )!!!
    Again, back to point of view. Granted, its hard not to invest one's own egoic interpretation of anything that serves one's own conceptions, but there is a more original truth that is even prior to religious theory or conceived theology,....that which is 'absolute reality' itself. That is prior to any concept, mental construct or assumption, being wholly pure, existential, infinite and omnipresent.

    It is just as well that Mother Mary is a 'virgin' meaning pure, virtuous, holy, innocent, unstained....whereby she surrendered herself to the service of God. That is all that is essential.


    pj

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    How can you do and say things like that??

    If you accept another person, and his book as a good answer, what book or person will you settle with for the next statement, or question?? – One can end up with a whole library of books by those you have accepted for all your own truths as you have collected from your library to deny what is simply in the Books of God. – I don’t need any other person, or his book to supplement, or ( take the place ) of the one book of Books of the (( Word of God ))!! --- How some of you can justify following what you / “You” think is a Genius of god over all the writers of the true Scriptures as given, is far beyond anything that I can comprehend. - To me, it is ((( impossible ))) to take anything other than what we do have!! After all, that is called by the writers, “The Word of God”, thus you ( must call some appointed genius ) of your own choosing, “God”, for God is as he gave to us. -- “As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he”, ( Thus ) it is with God, > “As God thinketh, and calls that the “Holy Ghost” and “Jesus”, ( so is God )”. -- Shall you have the Thoughts of some man in your heart, and call that ( who ) you are?? -- Yes, I suppose so!! – And I’m the wrong one here!!

    Paul – 071312
    ---Gal. 4:16.
    ---"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth"???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letsargue View Post
    How can you do and say things like that??

    If you accept another person, and his book as a good answer, what book or person will you settle with for the next statement, or question?? – One can end up with a whole library of books by those you have accepted for all your own truths as you have collected from your library to deny what is simply in the Books of God. – I don’t need any other person, or his book to supplement, or ( take the place ) of the one book of Books of the (( Word of God ))!! --- How some of you can justify following what you / “You” think is a Genius of god over all the writers of the true Scriptures as given, is far beyond anything that I can comprehend. - To me, it is ((( impossible ))) to take anything other than what we do have!! After all, that is called by the writers, “The Word of God”, thus you ( must call some appointed genius ) of your own choosing, “God”, for God is as he gave to us. -- “As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he”, ( Thus ) it is with God, > “As God thinketh, and calls that the “Holy Ghost” and “Jesus”, ( so is God )”. -- Shall you have the Thoughts of some man in your heart, and call that ( who ) you are?? -- Yes, I suppose so!! – And I’m the wrong one here!!

    Paul – 071312
    My former points stand,...and the burden of 'proof' is upon you if you claim the Bible or any other writing is somehow the 'word of God'...being inerrant/perfect/infallible. The 'virgin birth' is something you can choose to believe or not, if that affects one's faith or standing with God at all. Whether Jesus was born of a 'virgin' or not,...may not matter at all,...since 'God' can use whatever vessel in any way he chooses and still manifest his will and glory, since He is the source and upholder of all.

    Holy books, and human writings may be subject to tampering, imperfect translation, interpolations, ommisssions, etc. Language is not perfect, being 'symbolic' so it is up to soul and spirit to discern inner meanings and values. With progressive revelation a greater context unfolds.


    pj

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    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    My former points stand,...and the burden of 'proof' is upon you if you claim the Bible or any other writing is somehow the 'word of God'...being inerrant/perfect/infallible. The 'virgin birth' is something you can choose to believe or not, if that affects one's faith or standing with God at all. Whether Jesus was born of a 'virgin' or not,...may not matter at all,...since 'God' can use whatever vessel in any way he chooses and still manifest his will and glory, since He is the source and upholder of all.

    Holy books, and human writings may be subject to tampering, imperfect translation, interpolations, ommisssions, etc. Language is not perfect, being 'symbolic' so it is up to soul and spirit to discern inner meanings and values. With progressive revelation a greater context unfolds.


    pj

    Boy, if that’s not a flimsy excuse to reject God / Christ / Truth!!
    So God is not powerful and wise enough to ( guide ) His Word to us; is that the case?

    Paul – 091512
    ---Gal. 4:16.
    ---"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth"???

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    Lightbulb consider............

    Quote Originally Posted by Letsargue View Post
    Boy, if that’s not a flimsy excuse to reject God / Christ / Truth!!
    Not at all, but to think critically, investigate all points, discover what has real value and meaning...is a good rule. It might be your own 'concept' of what 'God/Christ/Truth' is...and not actual truth itself that you 'perceive' is being 'rejected'. Truth speaks for itself because it is all that really is. Its 'isness' is Self-evident. The essence and identity of Truth is always in the "I" that sees and knows...it is a radical subjectivity of Being.

    So God is not powerful and wise enough to ( guide ) His Word to us; is that the case?
    'God' is all power, all presence. Perfect light may be more or less refracted, diffused, distorted thru the lens of mortal finite minds....yet some 'light' is due to break thru such reflections, because 'God' is that reality that is always omnipresent...no matter what arises. God is. Indivisible Light is. All else is refracted by relative perception in space/time.

    A virgin birth is incidental and only 'relative' as much as it relates to any assumptions for its necessity or if it plays a part in one's theology.



    pj

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    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    Not at all, but to think critically, investigate all points, discover what has real value and meaning...is a good rule. It might be your own 'concept' of what 'God/Christ/Truth' is...and not actual truth itself that you 'perceive' is being 'rejected'. Truth speaks for itself because it is all that really is. Its 'isness' is Self-evident. The essence and identity of Truth is always in the "I" that sees and knows...it is a radical subjectivity of Being.



    'God' is all power, all presence. Perfect light may be more or less refracted, diffused, distorted thru the lens of mortal finite minds....yet some 'light' is due to break thru such reflections, because 'God' is that reality that is always omnipresent...no matter what arises. God is. Indivisible Light is. All else is refracted by relative perception in space/time.

    A virgin birth is incidental and only 'relative' as much as it relates to any assumptions for its necessity or if it plays a part in one's theology.



    pj

    What God says in His Word, is who Jesus is and was; ( The Truth )!!! ---- John 14:6 KJV -----//-- I have Faith that Jesus said there that He was the (( “Truth” )). - Now what is “Truth” to you?? – Wasn’t the Truth “carried” by a Virgin / “born” of a Virgin, and is not the Bride of Christ a Virgin and carries the Truth of Jesus Christ, the Word of God / The Gospel, the Seed of the Savior??? --- Does not the Bride of Christ give birth to the "Born Again" Children of Christ??

    Paul – 091512
    ---Gal. 4:16.
    ---"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth"???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letsargue View Post
    What God says in His Word, is who Jesus is and was; ( The Truth )!!! ---- John 14:6 KJV -----//-- I have Faith that Jesus said there that He was the (( “Truth” )). - Now what is “Truth” to you?? – Wasn’t the Truth “carried” by a Virgin / “born” of a Virgin, and is not the Bride of Christ a Virgin and carries the Truth of Jesus Christ, the Word of God / The Gospel, the Seed of the Savior??? --- Does not the Bride of Christ give birth to the "Born Again" Children of Christ??

    Paul – 091512

    Allegorically speaking....terms such as 'virgin', 'bride', 'seed', 'born again' have their place as they relate certain meanings. Jesus can still be a special and unique 'Son' of God without a virgin birth.


    pj

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    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    Allegorically speaking....terms such as 'virgin', 'bride', 'seed', 'born again' have their place as they relate certain meanings. Jesus can still be a special and unique 'Son' of God without a virgin birth.


    pj

    ( There cannot be a Heavenly Birth without a Virgin Birth )!!

    Are you saying as I do that all Christians are as Jesus the Christ was??

    Paul – 100412
    ---Gal. 4:16.
    ---"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth"???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letsargue View Post
    ( There cannot be a Heavenly Birth without a Virgin Birth )!!

    Are you saying as I do that all Christians are as Jesus the Christ was??

    Paul – 100412
    Was Jesus 100% human?



    pj

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    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    Was Jesus 100% human?



    pj

    Jesus wasn’t any % “Human”!! – There’s no such thing as a “Human”. God created “Man”, and man created the Human for himself. - Jesus was 100% God. >>-- Hebrews 2:6-8 KJV ---&--- “And the Word was made Flesh” ---&--- Matthew 1:23 KJV ---&--- 1 John 3:2 KJV ------//--- Find something in Scripture that will contradict with that set of 100% Truth that Jesus was 100% God, or 100% Truth, or 100% Light, or 100% Life!!

    Paul -- 100412
    ---Gal. 4:16.
    ---"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth"???

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    Lightbulb tidbits for the journey.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Letsargue View Post
    Jesus wasn’t any % “Human”!! – There’s no such thing as a “Human”. God created “Man”, and man created the Human for himself. - Jesus was 100% God. >>-- Hebrews 2:6-8 KJV ---&--- “And the Word was made Flesh” ---&--- Matthew 1:23 KJV ---&--- 1 John 3:2 KJV ------//--- Find something in Scripture that will contradict with that set of 100% Truth that Jesus was 100% God, or 100% Truth, or 100% Light, or 100% Life!!

    Paul -- 100412
    The question still remains, for traditional/orthodox Christian theology maintains that Jesus had an authentic human nature, for he was truly a 'human being', being a 'man' or the 'Son of Man'. They go further on to posit that He is also 100% God, the 'God-Man' Jesus. I ask to consider his human nature, how it could have come thru natural means of procreation just as well. If 'God' could effect a miracle of a virgin birth, He can equally bring the Messiah thru natural/ordinary means as well, although such means may be 'enhanced' or 'overshadowed' by His Presence, minus the usually fabled 'virgin birth' method.

    We've taken on the 'view' that Jesus is God elsewhere Here..... one that can be 'constested' on many fronts from a logical Unitarian POV, if one is more comfortable with such. You'll find there are just as many so called 'proof-texts' for a Unitarian view, as there are 'Trinitarian' in the afterwash

    A virgin birth is nowhere taught in Jewish scriptures pertaining to their Messiah (Is. 7:14 treated earlier), neither is their Messiah a 'God-man', a uniquely Christian cross-over, however... such archetypes of divine god-men predate Christianity in older religious myths.


    pj

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    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    The question still remains, for traditional/orthodox Christian theology maintains that Jesus had an authentic human nature, for he was truly a 'human being', being a 'man' or the 'Son of Man'. They go further on to posit that He is also 100% God, the 'God-Man' Jesus. I ask to consider his human nature, how it could have come thru natural means of procreation just as well. If 'God' could effect a miracle of a virgin birth, He can equally bring the Messiah thru natural/ordinary means as well, although such means may be 'enhanced' or 'overshadowed' by His Presence, minus the usually fabled 'virgin birth' method.

    We've taken on the 'view' that Jesus is God elsewhere Here..... one that can be 'constested' on many fronts from a logical Unitarian POV, if one is more comfortable with such. You'll find there are just as many so called 'proof-texts' for a Unitarian view, as there are 'Trinitarian' in the afterwash

    A virgin birth is nowhere taught in Jewish scriptures pertaining to their Messiah (Is. 7:14 treated earlier), neither is their Messiah a 'God-man', a uniquely Christian cross-over, however... such archetypes of divine god-men predate Christianity in older religious myths.


    pj

    It doesn’t matter what the “Traditional” or the ( Natural ) man thinks or says, or anything!! >>-- 1 Corinthians 2:14-15 KJV ------//--- That’s what ( IS )!! God did the Thinking and speaking for us to do and to think!! – That’s called ( Spirit )!!!!!

    The “Virgin Birth” is ( Not ) a Bad / “Bad” Birth!!!!! >>-- 1 Corinthians 7:1 KJV – “Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: ( It is “good” for a man “not to touch” ) a woman”. ------//--- If a man touches a woman, that is “Bad”; - but to justify, -- or ( Avoid / “Avoid” ) the condemnation of the ( Fornication ), they must marry!! -- ( That’s Paul to the Church, not to the Lost )!! --- What does “Avoid” mean? – “Avoid” means to go around, under, or - “Over the ( Obstacle )”. - “Avoid” doesn’t mean to remove the Obstacle, - or the “Fact” that touching even your Wife is “Bad” and is still not “Good”, but God closes His eyes, ( or winks ) at it if they marry. ----- Prove that wrong!!!!!!!!!!!

    Paul – 100512
    ---Gal. 4:16.
    ---"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth"???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letsargue View Post
    It doesn’t matter what the “Traditional” or the ( Natural ) man thinks or says, or anything!! >>-- 1 Corinthians 2:14-15 KJV ------//--- That’s what ( IS )!! God did the Thinking and speaking for us to do and to think!! – That’s called ( Spirit )!!!!!

    The “Virgin Birth” is ( Not ) a Bad / “Bad” Birth!!!!! >>-- 1 Corinthians 7:1 KJV – “Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: ( It is “good” for a man “not to touch” ) a woman”. ------//--- If a man touches a woman, that is “Bad”; - but to justify, -- or ( Avoid / “Avoid” ) the condemnation of the ( Fornication ), they must marry!! -- ( That’s Paul to the Church, not to the Lost )!! --- What does “Avoid” mean? – “Avoid” means to go around, under, or - “Over the ( Obstacle )”. - “Avoid” doesn’t mean to remove the Obstacle, - or the “Fact” that touching even your Wife is “Bad” and is still not “Good”, but God closes His eyes, ( or winks ) at it if they marry. ----- Prove that wrong!!!!!!!!!!!

    Paul – 100512
    Hi Paul,
    Why would God close His eyes to a man and wife?
    No I think you sound like the prophet who covered himself in the dust to hide his nakedness before God, right?

    It bothers your level of consciousness, right? Because you are aware that there should be/is more to you - the eternal and not the mortal, right?

    But God gave the woman to the man, right? He felt for him in that current state...maybe like now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rainee View Post
    Hi Paul,
    Why would God close His eyes to a man and wife?
    No I think you sound like the prophet who covered himself in the dust to hide his nakedness before God, right?

    It bothers your level of consciousness, right? Because you are aware that there should be/is more to you - the eternal and not the mortal, right?

    But God gave the woman to the man, right? He felt for him in that current state...maybe like now?

    Women having children by the sex act, or what God calls it, > “Fornication”, is due to the “Curse” of the sin of man doing just that. - Children were intended to be “created” without the sex act, and Jesus brought that back to His Kingdom. - You all call it “Born Again”. – I asked “What’s the meaning of the word, “Avoid”? – “Avoid” is the Word God uses in His / “His” definition of having children in that world, not God’s World; - that world >>-- Mark 12:25 KJV ---&--- 1 Corinthians 7:7 KJV ---&--- 1 Corinthians 7:29 KJV ---&--- 1 Corinthians 7:38 KJV ------//-- What is “Perfection” in Christ?? -- Is it less than “Perfect”, but not Lost, or Perfect, and ( What )?? >>>--- Hebrews 12:22-23 KJV >/< “And to the ( Spirits of just men made “PERFECT” )”. --------///-- It is the way God says, not what anyone else wants it to be!!!!!!!

    There is no end of that people throwing Scriptures out with themselves to hell!!

    God gave the woman to the man for what ( Purpose )?? - Not to have children by the sex act; - not in the Garden, but after the Curse of just that, was given to the Woman!! -- Jesus brought perfection ( Back ) without the sex act, or curse!! - The Son of God was brought forth without it, so why do you all have the sex act??

    There's no way anyone can justify having children through the sex act and calling it, "Perfect in Christ"!! - Christ brings forth children by His Wife the Church, by planting the ( Seed ) of God / the Gospel, and watering it, and raising the new Born child up from the dead unto Life ( period )

    Paul – 100512
    ---Gal. 4:16.
    ---"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth"???

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