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Thread: The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePresbyteers View Post
    God "PUT"...



    I would open with depiction of advertising where, say, sugary soft drinks are put before us. We drink 'em not because the ad took over our mind, but because the ad appealed to our nature ...which loves sugary drinks.

    Then go into Divine Providence where the Lord arranges circumstances. As the Supreme Being, God knows all our predilections. It's an easy thing for Him to juggle events in our lives so that we behave how He wants ...and how we want !
    So all our behavior is a result of God calling the shots? Good and bad? If so, why doesn't God give faith to everybody and get everybody to be one of the elect? I would be glad to see scripture to make you're point.

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    TOL Subscriber Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post

    You are assuming "before the foundation of the world" means before the creation of the universe, Adam,Eve, etc.
    The Greek word for "foundation," as used in the Scripture references I gave, is "katabole" which denotes a "deposition," or "founding," or figuratively, a "conception." (Nothing about the word denotes the old days of history.)

    Psalm 78:2 does not use similar language at all but is exemplary of teaching in parables, which is the subject of Matthew 13:35 and why the cross reference is made to the psalm.

    But thanks for the lecture, anyway.

    Nang
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
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    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    1 Jn 2:2, Rom 11:32, 1 Tim 2:1,4,6
    Biblical Means Catholic. God is Infinitely Merciful

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    Journeyman flintstoned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post
    So all our behavior is a result of God calling the shots? Good and bad? If so, why doesn't God give faith to everybody and get everybody to be one of the elect? I would be glad to see scripture to make you're point.
    Even better, why doesn't god make himself known to all so there would be no doubts of his existence. Just because he exists, doesn't mean you are forced to worship him. It would not take away my free will just to know that he existed. I still would have had the choice on whether or not to have faith (trust) in him and to follow him. If god really wanted ALL to be save, why not at least give everyone the same chance by making himself known to all, so there would be no doubts of his existence?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER steko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flintstoned View Post
    Even better, why doesn't god make himself known to all so there would be no doubts of his existence. Just because he exists, doesn't mean you are forced to worship him. It would not take away my free will just to know that he existed. I still would have had the choice on whether or not to have faith (trust) in him and to follow him. If god really wanted ALL to be save, why not at least give everyone the same chance by making himself known to all, so there would be no doubts of his existence?
    In Ro. 1, Paul says that there is sufficient evidence for all men to know that GOD exists, but that we suppress that truth because it leads to accountability.
    If anybody really wants to know, it can be known.

    On the other hand GOD has left the fact of HIS existence somewhat obscure, to allow us to choose to look for HIM. HIS overwhelming presence would eliminate our choosing to cease our rebellion freely. However, there will come a time when HIS presence will be overwhemingly plain. As C.S. Lewis remarked, that will be a time when there will be no point in saying, "I now choose to willingly bow before GOD", when it is impossible to stand up. Our time of choosing is now!

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    TOL Subscriber Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steko View Post
    In Ro. 1, Paul says that there is sufficient evidence for all men to know that GOD exists, but that we suppress that truth because it leads to accountability.
    If anybody really wants to know, it can be known.

    On the other hand GOD has left the fact of HIS existence somewhat obscure, to allow us to choose to look for HIM. HIS overwhelming presence would eliminate our choosing to cease our rebellion freely. However, there will come a time when HIS presence will be overwhemingly plain. As C.S. Lewis remarked, that will be a time when there will be no point in saying, "I now choose to willingly bow before GOD", when it is impossible to stand up. Our time of choosing is now!
    Sinners are unable and unwilling to "choose" to believe, because they are held in bondage to sin, death, and the devil.

    Until that plain fact is acknowledged, the matter of salvation by grace will never be appreciated or understood.

    Man has a will, but his will is not free (from sin, death, or the devil) to seek or please God.

    Only by the will and grace of God, that powerfully changes the very nature ("heart") of sinners, and rescues them from their bondage, is salvation evidenced in this sorry world.

    Nang
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    All of God's intentions, purposes, will, and desires are being achieved despite the fall of Adam.






    Illogical.
    What do you mean 'despite'? So the fall occurred contrary to God's Will?

    Except:

    Originally Posted by Nang
    God decreed that Adam would fall
    You're contradicting yourself.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post
    If I build a swimming pool for the good of the family and my son falls in: would it be a gift if then I threw him a life raft? I would love to hear your Biblical argument using "a myriad verses" that God knew Adam would fall.
    Actually no. It would be a responsible act of parenting to ensure your child's safety and anything that didn't attempt to secure such would amount to negligence. Before I supply verses are you arguing that God didn't know that Adam would err?
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    One cannot establish an accurate basic perspective according to an unbelieving "gist."

    Your assessment is way off base . . .
    If it's 'way off base' then explain why. That should not be difficult and if you don't then you're prevaricating.


    But sovereign predestination is not the sum total of all that Holy Scripture reveals. The bible also teaches that Christians are commissioned to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ.

    That is what my witness and testimony is, here on TOL. I proclaim what I believe. I proclaim the words of God. I proclaim both the Law of God and the Grace of God and leave any results from my witness to the will of God.

    I am commissioned by my Lord to do so, for this is His very means of calling sinners to Himself. Not just me, but it is the testimony of any Christian preaching the faithful gospel message (Holy Scripture) that contains the power to save.

    So it is important that I do what I am doing, even though I have no idea who, if any, will be given ears to hear God's message. That is not up to me. John 5:21

    Nang
    Well if you're correct Nang, then it's already a done deal and whatever you do has already been preordained along with everything else. So it is kinda moot whether you witness or not.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by flintstoned View Post
    Even better, why doesn't god make himself known to all so there would be no doubts of his existence. Just because he exists, doesn't mean you are forced to worship him. It would not take away my free will just to know that he existed. I still would have had the choice on whether or not to have faith (trust) in him and to follow him. If god really wanted ALL to be save, why not at least give everyone the same chance by making himself known to all, so there would be no doubts of his existence?
    Romans 1-3 All men are without excuse and universally condemned because God has made Himself plain and known.

    "He is there and He is not silent" -Francis Schaeffer
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Sinners are unable and unwilling to "choose" to believe, because they are held in bondage to sin, death, and the devil.

    Until that plain fact is acknowledged, the matter of salvation by grace will never be appreciated or understood.

    Man has a will, but his will is not free (from sin, death, or the devil) to seek or please God.

    Only by the will and grace of God, that powerfully changes the very nature ("heart") of sinners, and rescues them from their bondage, is salvation evidenced in this sorry world.

    Nang
    Total depravity is not total inability.

    God commands men everywhere to repent and believe. He does not command what is impossible.

    We do need the convincing, conviction, influence of the Spirit, but salvation is relational, not causative, passive, coercive. It is based on love, not force.

    TULIP is wilted.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    TOL Subscriber Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    What do you mean 'despite'? So the fall occurred contrary to God's Will?
    Sin and unbelief is contrary to the will of God, but God's purposes are to bring good out of evil. Genesis 50:20; Romans 8:28
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    TOL Subscriber Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    If it's 'way off base' then explain why.
    Well you summarize a conclusion that does not accord with what Scripture teaches. You claim God supposedly wills to show His "justice to the elect." Nowhere does Scripture teach that.


    Well if you're correct Nang, then it's already a done deal and whatever you do has already been preordained along with everything else. So it is kinda moot whether you witness or not.
    You speak of fatalism. I speak of divine means that save sinners.

    Men hearing the word of the gospel is the power that saves sinners, and God has ordained the Gospel message be proclaimed by those who already have been regenerated to new spiritual life by His grace.
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Sin and unbelief is contrary to the will of God, but God's purposes are to bring good out of evil. Genesis 50:20; Romans 8:28
    Then the Sovereign Will of God is either thwarted by man or decreed by God. You can't say 'despite' the fall if it's decreed by God to occur else it's contradiction.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    TOL Subscriber Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Total depravity is not total inability.
    Yes it is. Souls dead in trespasses and sin have innate ability to live.

    God commands men everywhere to repent and believe. He does not command what is impossible.
    Indeed God commands all men to believe and repent, which is possible by His grace and the power of His Holy Spirit, who gives new spiritual minds, hearts, and wills to sinners; enabling them to believe and repent.

    What is impossible with man, is made possible through faith in God.

    We do need the convincing, conviction, influence of the Spirit, but salvation is relational,
    Man can not initiate a relationship with God, because God has cursed him with enmity and separated His holiness from man.

    Only God can choose to reconcile man with Himself and create a new, spiritual relationship . . . and that was the purpose and accomplishment of the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

    A Mediator between sinful man and Holy God was necessary, and Jesus Christ alone fulfilled that role.

    Open Theists who preach "loving relationship" with God, fail when they base such relationship to be contingent upon the free will and choices of sinners.

    It is only the will and choosing of Jesus Christ, whereby sinners are brought into new spiritual relationship with the Father. John 5:21

    It is the choice of God alone who will be adopted and legally named as His children and heirs.


    TULIP is wilted.
    TULIP thrives and has been healthy for about 500 years.

    It is your recent little sprouting of Open Theism that fails to flourish.

    Nang
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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