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Thread: The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    So what's to stop God doing this for everyone then? What marks you or any of the other 'elect' so special as to warrant sparing from eternal misery while your neighbour resides in there for ever? You talk about 'simple truths' as if 'rejection' equates to 'volitional outright rebellion' since birth or some such. Without this 'gift' you'd be just as 'unregenerate' as anyone else even though according to Nang she's no more deserving 'than those predestined to hell'. Furthermore she has no concrete answer as to the fates of the unborn and infants under such a doctrine either.
    Rev. 1:17-18; Jn. 3:16 vs Jn. 3:36

    The issue is receiving or rejecting the cure for sin and death. It is not about partiality or specialness. Receiving a free gift is not earning nor providing nor initiating it. Rejecting a free gift leaves the individual culpable, not the Giver. There is no salvation apart from Christ. Faith vs unbelief is a strong dualism in John. These conditions are the manward issue, while grace and Christ are the Godward issue.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

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    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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  2. #32
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Rev. 1:17-18; Jn. 3:16 vs Jn. 3:36

    The issue is receiving or rejecting the cure for sin and death. It is not about partiality or specialness. Receiving a free gift is not earning nor providing nor initiating it. Rejecting a free gift leaves the individual culpable, not the Giver. There is no salvation apart from Christ. Faith vs unbelief is a strong dualism in John. These conditions are the manward issue, while grace and Christ are the Godward issue.
    Well as you know I was addressing this towards Calvinists specifically so my argument was not with you. However, a 'free gift' to avoid eternal suffering after having life thrust upon oneself where such parameters are set does not exactly amount to much of a gift. That's like chucking a non swimmer a life raft after throwing them into the water to begin with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Well as you know I was addressing this towards Calvinists specifically so my argument was not with you. However, a 'free gift' to avoid eternal suffering after having life thrust upon oneself where such parameters are set does not exactly amount to much of a gift. That's like chucking a non swimmer a life raft after throwing them into the water to begin with.
    Man got himself into the mess (Fall), and God provides the perfect remedy for it. Men curse God despite His mercy. They cannot be saved while rejecting His love. Issues of free will, justice, mercy, love, relationship, holiness, probation (now vs after death), etc. make your view untenable (not to mention the clear biblical teaching that contradicts it).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

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    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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  4. #34
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    Spot on correct. Well put. And I will never get it. How hard is it to stand up and say I am guilty, and need a savior? I will never get it.
    Get what? That people have doubts? You think everyone who hasn't seen as 'clearly' as you do so because they just want to rebel against God and go to eternal suffering? I doubt I'll ever 'get' such a dumb and basic assessment of the complexities of human nature so there you go I suppose...

    Last edited by Arthur Brain; November 3rd, 2010 at 01:15 AM.
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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Man got himself into the mess (Fall), and God provides the perfect remedy for it. Men curse God despite His mercy. They cannot be saved while rejecting His love. Issues of free will, justice, mercy, love, relationship, holiness, probation (now vs after death), etc. make your view untenable (not to mention the clear biblical teaching that contradicts it).
    What do you mean 'man' got himself into the mess? God could have avoided any such consequence by not creating such an obviously flawed creature to begin with GR. Again, it's the 'life raft' scenario. Before the outset of creation God creates man knowing he'll fall and stumble, sets the parameters where any 'justice' can only take place after creation, gives them the 'ability' to suffer pain for an eternity and to 'appease' this 'justice' by clinging onto the raft after giving them the 'gift' of life in the first place.

    You can shout 'untenable' as you will GR. I've addressed your standard objections already in the other thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    What do you mean 'man' got himself into the mess? God could have avoided any such consequence by not creating such an obviously flawed creature to begin with GR. Again, it's the 'life raft' scenario. Before the outset of creation God creates man knowing he'll fall and stumble, sets the parameters where any 'justice' can only take place after creation, gives them the 'ability' to suffer pain for an eternity and to 'appease' this 'justice' by clinging onto the raft after giving them the 'gift' of life in the first place.

    You can shout 'untenable' as you will GR. I've addressed your standard objections already in the other thread.
    Lucifer and Adam were not flawed because they had free moral agency. The possibility of great love and good necessitates the equal possibility (vs certainty) of great evil. The alternative is to not create or to create robots. The God who risks (John Sanders, Open Theist) is a truer model of providence than determinism/Calvinism.

    It is a wrong assumption to think that God intended, desired, foreknew as a certainty the Fall. He had a contingent plan of redemption, but the Fall was not a necessity.

    You make emotional arguments, but lack depth of understanding of the issues a Moral Governor faced in created non-robots.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

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    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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  7. #37
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Lucifer and Adam were not flawed because they had free moral agency. The possibility of great love and good necessitates the equal possibility (vs certainty) of great evil. The alternative is to not create or to create robots. The God who risks (John Sanders, Open Theist) is a truer model of providence than determinism/Calvinism.

    It is a wrong assumption to think that God intended, desired, foreknew as a certainty the Fall. He had a contingent plan of redemption, but the Fall was not a necessity.

    You make emotional arguments, but lack depth of understanding of the issues a Moral Governor faced in created non-robots.
    Oh c'mon GR. Are you seriously telling me that God hadn't foresaw the weakness of man and any subsequent 'falling'? There's a myriad verses in the bible that speak of God's plans from the outset of creation and His knowledge in such regard and the reconciliation of said creation.

    You're simply trying to undermine any counter position as 'emotional' without even attempting to address the logic. You are not the 'moral governor' and your 'lacking depth of understanding' rubbish is as patronising as it's irrelevant. As ironic as it stands you do the best impression of a programmed robot as anyone on this forum.

    Answer this. If I build a swimming pool, throw my kid in there and after a couple of minutes throw him a life raft when he's struggling to stay afloat am I giving him a gift? Can you actually give an honest answer to this without prevarication and sound bites?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePresbyteers View Post
    All mankind reject. Don't you see why God had to step in and save the Elects. If He didn't do that, all will go to hell. Simple truths that a child can understand. The unregenrates reject. God didn't cause them to. God caused the elects to be saved by giving them the "gift of faith". What is there not to understand? All mankind didn't want the gift of faith so God stepped in a gave the Elects the gift of faith. The rest rejects just as God foresaw and predestined. Those that reject are the ones that say all is saved and going to Heaven. They printed their own ticket to Heaven but made it for the wrong theater.
    You said, "Perhaps God put Open Theism in front of you so you would reject Him." I thought you were serious when you said that to GR. Were you? Do you think God causes people to reject?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Oh c'mon GR. Are you seriously telling me that God hadn't foresaw the weakness of man and any subsequent 'falling'? There's a myriad verses in the bible that speak of God's plans from the outset of creation and His knowledge in such regard and the reconciliation of said creation.

    Answer this. If I build a swimming pool, throw my kid in there and after a couple of minutes throw him a life raft when he's struggling to stay afloat am I giving him a gift? Can you actually give an honest answer to this without prevarication and sound bites?
    If I build a swimming pool for the good of the family and my son falls in: would it be a gift if then I threw him a life raft? I would love to hear your Biblical argument using "a myriad verses" that God knew Adam would fall.

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    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steko View Post
    If Jesus only died for the lost sheep of Israel, then we are yet in our sins and have no hope.
    Not if one is of the Lost Sheep of Israel. Paul declares that God hath rasied up unto Israel a Saviour Acts 13:23

    23Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

    He as Saviour giveth Israel repentace and forgiveness of sins

    Acts 5:31

    31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    Israel means His Chosen People, Jew or Gentile.
    Last edited by beloved57; August 27th, 2013 at 10:05 PM.
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    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Modal logic correctly distinguishes actual, certain, possible, probable, necessary, etc. God knew of the possibility and probability of the Fall, but His great grief after the Fall shows that He did not expect it given the perfect and reasonable conditions given to innocent men. The Fall was possible, not necessary/inevitable. It was certainly likely. God knows reality as it is. Other verses also show God expecting good things from Israel, then being disappointed when they do bad things.

    The future is inherently partially open vs closed, by God's sovereign choice.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

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    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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    TOL Subscriber Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    So what's to stop God doing this for everyone then?
    It is necessary that God reveal His holy justice and make His power known amongst men. See Romans 9:17-18





    What marks you or any of the other 'elect' so special as to warrant sparing from eternal misery while your neighbour resides in there for ever?
    There is nothing special about the chosen people of God, other than they have found favor with God. (e.g. Genesis 6:8) There are no scriptural reasons revealing why God choses some and judges others (Noah and his family found grace, while the rest of the human population perished in the flood); that decision resides within His sovereignty and good purposes, alone.


    You talk about 'simple truths' as if 'rejection' equates to 'volitional outright rebellion' since birth or some such. Without this 'gift' you'd be just as 'unregenerate' as anyone else even though according to Nang she's no more deserving 'than those predestined to hell'. Furthermore she has no concrete answer as to the fates of the unborn and infants under such a doctrine either.
    The fate of infants is determined according to divine Unconditional Election, just like the fate of adults. Babies are in need of God's grace, too, and those chosen by God in Christ before the foundation of the world, will receive His saving mercies and be saved in Jesus Christ.

    What you are arguing for, is Universalism. You are saying that God is not good unless He tries to save all persons and treats all persons equally. This is part of the western (democratic) mindset, that has little knowledge of the makeup of sovereign rulers . . . who are not obligated to show any favors to their subjects, at all.

    Earthly sovereigns are all sinners and most are tyrants, but Sovereign God is holy, loving, and good.

    When investigating the bible's teachings about Unconditional Election, one must exercise faith in the goodness and wisdom of God. One must be willing to accept that God has the sovereign power and right to show favor and grace, to whom He wills (Romans 9:15-16). And one must, by faith, trust that God has chosen His people wisely and for good purposes.

    Accepting Divine Election as truth is a matter of faith, which of course, comes only by the grace of God to begin with. So it is no surprise that some sinners testify to God's electing grace in faith, and most others reject the doctrine. For those others have not been gifted with the faith necessary to comprehend or believe the promises of God.

    Nang
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post

    The future is inherently partially open vs closed, by God's sovereign choice.
    Illogical.
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post
    If I build a swimming pool for the good of the family and my son falls in: would it be a gift if then I threw him a life raft? I would love to hear your Biblical argument using "a myriad verses" that God knew Adam would fall.
    God decreed that Adam would fall, and decreed that God the Son would be the "Lamb of God," before the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8; I Peter 1:20)

    "If anyone has an ear, let him hear." Revelation 13:9
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Illogical.
    Fatalism, determinism, fixed future is illogical. It is common sense and biblical that the potential future is becoming the fixed past through the actual present (presentism vs eternalism; A vs B theory of time).

    It is illogical to you because you are a determinist and reject self-evident free will. It is logical to thinking people who are not biased by a false system.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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