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Thread: The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    The virtue of Christs death !

    It was by His death that the old testament saints received remission of their sins, Hence Heb 9:15

    [FONT="]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the [/FONT]redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

    This was indicated when Moses and Elijah spoke with Lord about His death, These two perhaps being representative of the Law and the Prophets. Lk 9:30-31

    Old testament saints had an interest in the death of Christ and what it accomplished.

    Absolutely Brother ! Moses and Elijah, as well as all OT Saints, the Heirs of Promise Gal. 4:28, God's elect Eph. 1:4-7, or Christ's Sheep John 10:11; were truly Blessed as no sin was imputed to them [as David penned in Ps. 32:1-2] and of the same Spiritual Seed of Abraham, the Seed of Christ Gal. 3:16, 29 as NT saints. Together, they were made Righteous, in the Mind and Purpose of God Eph. 3:11, by the Obedience of One Rom. 5:19, Christ the Lamb; their Covenant Head, Surety Mediator and Saviour Heb. 7:22 Christ Jesus; Is. 53:6 before the world began Rev. 13:8; 2 Tim. 1:9.
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    The Second Blessing of the Blessing of Abraham, what God meant when He said to Abraham Gen 12:3

    3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    The second one is the Holy Spirit and or Spiritual Life. Lets go back to Gal 3:13-14

    13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    That [hina purpose] we [Abraham's Spiritual Seed] might receive the PROMISE of the Spirit through Faith [Christ's Faithfulness]

    It was because Christ, Abraham's Seed Gal 3:16 obeyed the Voice of His Father as a Surety Head for the Spiritual Seed of Abraham, that Seed receives the Blessing of the Spirit for Life.

    Remember this incident in Gen 22:12-18



    Well Abraham was merely a Type of Christ in this, and its fulfillment is In Christ and His Obedience unto Death, because He obeyed the Voice of God, in Him all the Seed shall be blessed with the Blessing of Abraham which is the Spirit.

    That's why as soon as Jesus Christ ascended to the Right Hand of God having conqured Death, He received from the Father THE PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT to pour out on His Seed, the Seed of Abraham Acts 2:32-33

    32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

    33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Yes, that was upon a Jewish Remnant of the Spiritual Seed of Abraham, but we know He did it also upon a Gentile Remnant of the Seed of Abraham Titus 3:5-6

    5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
    Or through Faith, His Faithfulness !

    Titus to whom Paul wrote the Letter to was an Gentile Pastor of a Church.

    So all for whom Christ died, and redeemed from the curse of the Law, it was in order that through Christ they shall be Justified by Faith and that they shall be given the Spirit, New Life, New Birth.

    This must happen to everyone Christ died for, if it doesn't, the scriptures are false and unreliable in its Testimony in this Matter. Those who teach that Christ died for individuals who subsequently die in unbelief and their sins as Per Jn 8:24, they are calling God a Liar, Christ's Redeeming Death a Lie, The Spirit a Lie, the Scriptures a Lie !

    Amen and Thank You for this Powerful Message my Brother !
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    1 John 2:2 King James Version (KJV)
    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    1 John 2:2 King James Version (KJV)
    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    Yep, God chooses from throughout the whole world, not just from Israel. God is the propitiation, not just for John and his audience, but for all the elect around the world in all generations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    1 Pet 3:18

    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    Did you know that sinners being converted to God in Faith and Repentance is one of the main purposes of Christ's death " being put to death in the flesh"

    And His Resurrection, that all for whom He died might be returned unto God ! Remember it is written Isa 53:6

    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all[He was put to death for their iniquities].

    Now " the all we who went astray here as the prophet has written" it was all of them that Christ's being put to death in the flesh was to bring back or return to God ! He was as their Shepherd return them back to God, and if each one of them is not brought back or returned to God as it is stated here 1 Pet 2:25

    25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    That word returned is Epistrepho and means :

    to cause to return, to bring back

    Now if each one of those who went astray are not returned back, 100% of them then God's Purpose in Christ's Death and Resurrection has failed, its as simple as that !

    The same as, if Christ does not seek and save all that were Lost Lk 19:10

    10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. The same ones as in Isa 53:6 who went astray :

    If He does not both seek and save 100 % of those He was to seek and to save, then He is a failure in the Fathers Mission, and everyone who teaches that Christ does not save all whom He came to seek, 100 % of them, you are guilty of calling Him a Failure, and its no way around it, and you must answer to it in the day of Judgment !
    Amen Brother, that is absolutely correct !
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    1 John 2:2 King James Version (KJV)
    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    1 John 2:2 King James Version (KJV)
    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    Question:

    Does 1 John 2:2 teach universal atonement?

    Answer:

    By atonement, we understand that both God's justice and his wrath needed to be satisfied. The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23) and God hates sin (Rom. 2:6-8). Therefore it was necessary for Jesus to die for sin in order to satisfy God's just judgment against sin. "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:3). It was also necessary for Jesus to set aside God's wrath against sin. "But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God" (Rom. 5:8-9).

    Therefore, when you ask whether 1 John 2:2 teaches universal atonement, I understand you to ask whether that passage teaches that Jesus died to satisfy the justice and wrath of God for everyone in the human race.

    First of all, we know God is the author of all Scripture (1 Tim. 3:16) and we know that he is not a God of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33). We therefore may be certain that no two passages of Scripture are going to teach something contrary to one another.

    Second, the angel told Joseph that Jesus, "will save his people from their sins" (Matt. 1:21). Jesus said that he laid down his life for the sheep (John 10:15-18) and Paul writes in Titus 2:13-14, "Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works."

    We see from these passages that Jesus died only for "his people," "his sheep" and "a people for his own possession." Therefore 1 John 2:2 cannot teach something contrary to these passages.

    Also, it cannot be said that 1 John 2:2 is teaching universal atonement unless it is also claimed that it teaches universal salvation, which it clearly does not since John goes on to write about those who love the world and are passing away (1 John 2:15-17) and the antichrists who have departed from God's people and who deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:18-23), and those who abide in sin and therefore are of the devil (1 John 3:6-8).

    If 1 John 2:2 is not teaching universal salvation or universal atonement, what is it teaching?

    When we look here at God's Word it must be remembered that the words "all" and "world" do not always mean "every member of the human race." Acts 19:10 says, "This continued for two years, so that all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks." Do we think that Paul personally preached to every single man, woman and child living in Asia? No.

    Again, in 1 Corinthians 6:12 and 10:23, Paul says that all things are lawful for him. Would he really mean that he is permitted to practice idolatry and sexual immorality? No.

    Therefore when John writes "not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world" first, he is building on what he wrote in the first chapter. He is showing that the message of salvation has gone out from the apostles to all those who have heard it (in the whole world) so that they can have fellowship with the apostles and with the Father and Son (1 John 1:1-4). It is a message that has gone out to all of the nations of the world.

    Here then in 1 John 2:2 he reminds them that in their struggle against sin they can continue to find forgiveness through Jesus Christ. The forgiveness and propitiation for sins that is only through Jesus Christ is the only means by which those who are in the world can ever be forgiven—not just the apostles who knew Jesus, but everyone in the world—that is, all those who have fellowship with the Father and the Son (1:5) and who can know that they know him because they keep his word (2:3-6).

    https://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=418

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    Actually, the blood atonement theology was not worked out until some 900 years after the crucifixion by famous Christian theologian Aselm of Canterbury.

    “Go and learn what this means: [God] desires mercy and not sacrifice.”
    --Matthew 9:13

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Also when stated that those whom Christ died for are redeemed BY HIS BLOOD from a vain conversation received from their fathers 1 Pet 1:18-20

    18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from or away from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

    19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    That's why its impossible for the false teachers in 2 Pet 2:1

    But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    Its impossible for them to have been redeemed by Christ's Blood, for His Blood would redeem them out of false religion, as it does from all iniquity Titus 2:14

    14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from apo all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

    That word from apo is the greek prep which means:

    of separation of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...
    of separation of a part from the whole where of a whole some part is taken

    of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

    The redeemed one by the blood will be separated from false teachers, or they will separate from true believers like 1 Jn 2:19

    They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    Now these things Titus 2:14; 1 Pet 1:18 are the result and effect of Christ Crucified, not a maybe or possible result, but a sure result, and so True Believers shall Glory in the Cross as Paul saith here Gal 6:14

    14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

    Amen to all 3 parts: GLORYING IN THE CROSS NOT FREEWILL OF MAN !

    The false gospel of man's freewill, being totally antichrist, teaches that the Atonement of Christ was indefinite, so that now it causes men to derive a false assurance of salvation based upon works and/or duties they perform; and not the Finished Work of the Cross of Jesus Christ which definitely Saves all for whom it was shed John 10:11; Eph. 5:25; Mat. 1:21 !
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    1 John 2:2
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    1 John 2:2
    Question:

    Does 1 John 2:2 teach universal atonement?

    Answer:

    By atonement, we understand that both God's justice and his wrath needed to be satisfied. The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23) and God hates sin (Rom. 2:6-8). Therefore it was necessary for Jesus to die for sin in order to satisfy God's just judgment against sin. "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:3). It was also necessary for Jesus to set aside God's wrath against sin. "But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God" (Rom. 5:8-9).

    Therefore, when you ask whether 1 John 2:2 teaches universal atonement, I understand you to ask whether that passage teaches that Jesus died to satisfy the justice and wrath of God for everyone in the human race.

    First of all, we know God is the author of all Scripture (1 Tim. 3:16) and we know that he is not a God of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33). We therefore may be certain that no two passages of Scripture are going to teach something contrary to one another.

    Second, the angel told Joseph that Jesus, "will save his people from their sins" (Matt. 1:21). Jesus said that he laid down his life for the sheep (John 10:15-18) and Paul writes in Titus 2:13-14, "Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works."

    We see from these passages that Jesus died only for "his people," "his sheep" and "a people for his own possession." Therefore 1 John 2:2 cannot teach something contrary to these passages.

    Also, it cannot be said that 1 John 2:2 is teaching universal atonement unless it is also claimed that it teaches universal salvation, which it clearly does not since John goes on to write about those who love the world and are passing away (1 John 2:15-17) and the antichrists who have departed from God's people and who deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:18-23), and those who abide in sin and therefore are of the devil (1 John 3:6-8).

    If 1 John 2:2 is not teaching universal salvation or universal atonement, what is it teaching?

    When we look here at God's Word it must be remembered that the words "all" and "world" do not always mean "every member of the human race." Acts 19:10 says, "This continued for two years, so that all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks." Do we think that Paul personally preached to every single man, woman and child living in Asia? No.

    Again, in 1 Corinthians 6:12 and 10:23, Paul says that all things are lawful for him. Would he really mean that he is permitted to practice idolatry and sexual immorality? No.

    Therefore when John writes "not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world" first, he is building on what he wrote in the first chapter. He is showing that the message of salvation has gone out from the apostles to all those who have heard it (in the whole world) so that they can have fellowship with the apostles and with the Father and Son (1 John 1:1-4). It is a message that has gone out to all of the nations of the world.

    Here then in 1 John 2:2 he reminds them that in their struggle against sin they can continue to find forgiveness through Jesus Christ. The forgiveness and propitiation for sins that is only through Jesus Christ is the only means by which those who are in the world can ever be forgiven—not just the apostles who knew Jesus, but everyone in the world—that is, all those who have fellowship with the Father and the Son (1:5) and who can know that they know him because they keep his word (2:3-6).

    https://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=418

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    Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
    Question:

    Does 1 John 2:2 teach universal atonement?

    Answer:

    By atonement, we understand that both God's justice and his wrath needed to be satisfied. The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23) and God hates sin (Rom. 2:6-8). Therefore it was necessary for Jesus to die for sin in order to satisfy God's just judgment against sin. "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:3). It was also necessary for Jesus to set aside God's wrath against sin. "But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God" (Rom. 5:8-9).

    Therefore, when you ask whether 1 John 2:2 teaches universal atonement, I understand you to ask whether that passage teaches that Jesus died to satisfy the justice and wrath of God for everyone in the human race.

    First of all, we know God is the author of all Scripture (1 Tim. 3:16) and we know that he is not a God of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33). We therefore may be certain that no two passages of Scripture are going to teach something contrary to one another.

    Second, the angel told Joseph that Jesus, "will save his people from their sins" (Matt. 1:21). Jesus said that he laid down his life for the sheep (John 10:15-18) and Paul writes in Titus 2:13-14, "Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works."

    We see from these passages that Jesus died only for "his people," "his sheep" and "a people for his own possession." Therefore 1 John 2:2 cannot teach something contrary to these passages.

    Also, it cannot be said that 1 John 2:2 is teaching universal atonement unless it is also claimed that it teaches universal salvation, which it clearly does not since John goes on to write about those who love the world and are passing away (1 John 2:15-17) and the antichrists who have departed from God's people and who deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:18-23), and those who abide in sin and therefore are of the devil (1 John 3:6-8).

    If 1 John 2:2 is not teaching universal salvation or universal atonement, what is it teaching?

    When we look here at God's Word it must be remembered that the words "all" and "world" do not always mean "every member of the human race." Acts 19:10 says, "This continued for two years, so that all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks." Do we think that Paul personally preached to every single man, woman and child living in Asia? No.

    Again, in 1 Corinthians 6:12 and 10:23, Paul says that all things are lawful for him. Would he really mean that he is permitted to practice idolatry and sexual immorality? No.

    Therefore when John writes "not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world" first, he is building on what he wrote in the first chapter. He is showing that the message of salvation has gone out from the apostles to all those who have heard it (in the whole world) so that they can have fellowship with the apostles and with the Father and Son (1 John 1:1-4). It is a message that has gone out to all of the nations of the world.

    Here then in 1 John 2:2 he reminds them that in their struggle against sin they can continue to find forgiveness through Jesus Christ. The forgiveness and propitiation for sins that is only through Jesus Christ is the only means by which those who are in the world can ever be forgiven—not just the apostles who knew Jesus, but everyone in the world—that is, all those who have fellowship with the Father and the Son (1:5) and who can know that they know him because they keep his word (2:3-6).

    https://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=418
    No! It teaches that Christ died for all, not that all are saved.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    No! It teaches that Christ died for all, not that all are saved.
    Then you are guilty of teaching that Christs death alone doesn't save them He died for, and guilty of teaching salvation is by what man does, which equates to salvation by works, which is apostasy ! Theres no way around it
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    No! It teaches that Christ died for all, not that all are saved.
    Stick your head in the sand. I shared what I shared. Feel free to ignore it and have the Bible contradict itself because you can't grasp context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Then you are guilty of teaching that Christs death alone doesn't save them He died for, and guilty of teaching salvation is by what man does, which equates to salvation by works, which is apostasy ! Theres no way around it
    He's also guilty of teaching double jeopardy whereby God judges sin twice. The first time God atones for all sins, but then God denies that atonement and rejudges based not on the atonement, but upon whether a person conjured up enough faith. Lack of faith, beats atonement of Christ and thus condemns to hell. It's a God dishonoring doctrine.

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