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Thread: The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Now it is Christ that sets us free from the servitude of sin symptomized by unbelief and dead works of false religion. So if one does not ever come to believe the Gospel, its because they are still being a servant of sin, and if and when they do come to embrace the Gospel, its the evidence that for them, Christ's death hath set them free, that is the effects of His death, it hath liberated them from service to sin, and God should be thanked for that as Paul writes here Rom 6:17

    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin or unbelievers, but ye have obeyed/believed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

    Believing or obeying from the Heart the Gospel is something God should be thanked for ! Not mans idol freewill ! Believing the Doctrine of the Gospel is an act of obeying, as it is indicated here Rom 10:16

    16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

    Now the word obeyed in Rom 6:17 and here in Rom 10:16 are the same greek word hypakouō and means:



    Paul says that if one obeyed, then God should be Thanked for that Rom 6:17.

    The same would apply for Rom 10:9-10

    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    That action if performed by us, God should be Thanked !

    Antichrist followers would tell us that mans own freewill is responsible for believing from the heart the Doctrine of Christ and His finished work, which is a lie !

    Take your pick, either God , Christ should get the Full credit for ones believing the Gospel, or mans freewill gets the credit, or even partial credit, but it cannot be both ! Remember, we must be first set free from the servitude of sin to become a believer ! Does Christ death effects that freedom, liberty or mans freewill ?

    Amen Brother ! Christ's death alone set free all those He died for from the servitude of sin Rom. 6:6-7; and it's these same ones, because of their Eternal Union with Him Eph. 1:4, were Crucified Gal. 2:20 and quickened together with Him for their Eternal Justification Rom. 4:25 so that all the sins they would ever commit, were never laid to their charge but to Christ their Surety Heb. 7:22 in their stead Rom. 8:1. So it's because of His death on their behalf that they shall be given to believe on Him Phil. 1:29 by the Spirit Gal. 5:22 when they are Born Again John 3:3.

    Now comparatively speaking, the natural man's [unregenerate] believing by his freewill accomplishes absolutely nothing in service to God, for it's merely a work of the flesh that cannot please Him Rom. 8:8; Is. 64:6 !
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    The theology of the atonement--which wasn’t developed until some 900 years after the crucifixion--became foundational in later history for the idea that Jesus died for humankind’s sins on the cross.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post
    The theology of the atonement--which wasnít developed until some 900 years after the crucifixion--became foundational in later history for the idea that Jesus died for humankindís sins on the cross.
    Um, no, that would be 1 Peter 3:18, which was written before 90 AD.

    For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, - 1 Peter 3:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

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    The verse from 1 Peter is a later interpolation and a dogmatic, theologian meanng placed onto Jesus’ life decades after the crucifixion.

    Read this link for a peek at the historical context of the atonement substituionary idea:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anselm_of_Canterbury

    [Anselm] was "the originator of the ontological argument for the existence of God and of the satisfaction theory of atonement."

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    Quote Originally Posted by aikido7 View Post
    The verse from 1 Peter is a later interpolation and a dogmatic, theologian meaning placed onto Jesusí life
    Why couldn't it just be Peter explaining to his converts what Christ's ministry was all about?

    decades after the crucifixion.
    Decades.

    Not centuries like you suggested.

    Read this link for a peek at the historical context of the atonement substituionary idea:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anselm_of_Canterbury

    [Anselm] was "the originator of the ontological argument for the existence of God and of the satisfaction theory of atonement."

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    If I posted the word “centuries” then I am dead wrong.
    Anselm devised his theology around 900 years after the crucifixion.
    Thanks for the info.

    Why couldn't it just be Peter explaining to his converts what Christ's ministry was all about?
    .

    There are many different, contradictory traditions found in the Bible. The idea that Peter preached Jesus’ ministry may go back to a real event.

    Mark, the earliest gospel written, says nothing about the resurrection.
    Paul does not seem to know anything about the empty tomb tradition.
    He merely says that Jesus was “born of a woman” and was simply “buried” after he died.

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    Maranatha Nanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    2 Cor 5:14-15

    14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

    15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

    Folks one of the sure ways to determine who Jesus Christ died for, to know whether it was limited to only some of mankind, is to know that it [His Death] in the purpose of God must produce certain results, that being Life, Spiritual Life, this is true so much so, that if one does not experience New Life from from Christ by New Birth in this Life, to live by Faith, we can safely conclude that Christ never died for them, else we must admit that Christ's Death failed the purpose of God ! How many of us are willing to do that ?

    Now our text passage informs us that the purpose of Christ's death was so that all for whom He died, should live unto Him that died for them, that Being Christ !

    In Vs 15 it reads that He died for all [all that He died for] that !

    Lets look at the word that :

    15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

    Its the conjunction hina and means:

    I.that, in order that, so that !

    It denotes purpose and end, to the intent that, to the end that,

    In order that they which Live ! Who are the they which Live ? Its all for whom He died, for they Live by His Resurrection, they Live when He Lived from the dead.

    Rom 6:10

    For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

    Thats talking about Christ, He Liveth after having died, He liveth unto God , not as a private person, but as the Head and Represenative of all for whom He died, so His Living unto God must translate unto their Living unto God, the members of the Body must Live because its Head does ! Thats why He is the Saviour of the Body Eph 5:23

    For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

    So being that He is the Head, He is the Saviour, both Head and Saviour is a Joint Office,

    So the they which Live in 2 Cor 5:15 are simply all whom He represented when He died and rose again !

    Now, the Purpose of His Death and resurrection was that they should Live unto God or unto Him that died for them and rose again ! Who is both God and Man,

    So thats how we know who specifically who Christ died for and rose again, simply speaking, all who live unto God by Faith ! Did you and I come to Faith in Christ by the Power of the Holy Spirit ? Then Christ died for us, BUT if we never come to a Living Faith in Christ, then Christ did not die for us, lest we charge Gods intent for His death with failure !
    Amen Brother !
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
    Amen Brother !
    Bless you Sister for God has been pleased that we believe the testimony of the Cross of Christ !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Bless you Sister for God has been pleased that we believe the testimony of the Cross of Christ !
    I strongly suggest that you two do a study on the term flattery. It puffs up pride and leads to death.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

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    The theology of the atonement was not mentioned until the work published by Anselm of Canterbury nearly 1,000 years after the crucifixion.

    In addition, there were no artistic representations of Jesus hanging on a cross until well into the 5th century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Bless you Sister for God has been pleased that we believe the testimony of the Cross of Christ !
    So True My Brother, and this testimony of the Cross of Christ we do Believe, we know it's not of ourselves, but that Christ's Faithfulness was ours being the Living Members of His Body: The Faith of the Son of God; the Fruit of Christ's Spirit Gal. 5:22 that was Given us when we were Born Again, Born of the Spirit John 3:3-6 !

    Gal. 2:20

    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
    So True My Brother, and this testimony of the Cross of Christ we do Believe, we know it's not of ourselves, but that Christ's Faithfulness was ours being the Living Members of His Body: The Faith of the Son of God; the Fruit of Christ's Spirit Gal. 5:22 that was Given us when we were Born Again, Born of the Spirit John 3:3-6 !

    Gal. 2:20

    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
    Amen !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Everyone Christ died for/shed His Blood for are made priest unto God Rev 1:5-6

    5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
    Last edited by beloved57; Yesterday at 08:59 AM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Everyone Christ died for/shed His Blood for are made priest unto God Rev 1:5-6
    5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    Amen ! Christ's Blood / Death alone for those He died for, has Made them Kings and Priests unto God: His Seed Is. 53:10, a Generation Chosen in union with Him before the foundation to be Holy and without blame before Him in love Eph. 1:3-4. These same ones shall be given a New Nature or New Birth in time.


    John 3:3, 5

    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    1 Pet. 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:


    Now because Christ's Death delivered them from the power of darkness Col. 1:13, they are given New Spiritual Life and translated into His Kingdom to serve Him in this Life, and for all Eternity as Priests unto God !


    1 Pet. 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.


    Ps. 132:9 Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy.
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    Every created thing (pan ktisma). Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from ktizw, for which see 1 Timothy 4:4 ; James 1:18 ), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in verse James 3 , with on the sea epi th qalassh added). No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (ktisi) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption.

    If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off. Saying (legonta). Masculine (construction according to sense, personifying the created things) if genuine, though some MSS. have legonta (grammatical gender agreeing with panta) present active participle of legw, to say. And to the Lamb (kai twi arniwi). Dative case. Praise and worship are rendered to the Lamb precisely as to God on the throne. Note separate articles here in the doxology as in Romans 4:11 and the addition of to krato (active power) in place of iscu (reserve of strength) in Romans 5:12 .

    -F.W. Robertson N.T. Word pictures-

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