WHICH CHURCH WAS HEBREWS WRITTEN TO?

God's Truth

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Liar.

No one argued that.



The BIBLE says that.



Not in dispute.



Sorry, but lambs never took away sin according to Mosaic law.



Which has nothing to do with this.

I do not lie.

Jesus taught he would die, BUT EVEN IF NO ONE EVER UNDERSTOOD IT AT THE TIME---ALL were taught that they MUST believe and obey Jesus to have eternal life. THEN, he HAD TO SHED his blood to make what he said to go into effect.

As for the Bible, it says lambs atoned for sins. Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world once and for all.
 

God's Truth

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Yes, that is what is being discussed, GT, and what RD presented to you, which you deny.

Why do you deny what scripture says?



What does Thomas have to do with anything that has been said so far?

Thomas is an apostle and doubted, and you and RD say no one understood that Jesus had to die. SO WHAT if they didn't understand at the time? They were taught it and so what if they didn't understand everything that Jesus taught, or had doubts?
 

God's Truth

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The gospel is Jesus Christ.

Jesus came with grace and taught faith.

He said believe in Me, and to have faith, and to obey his teachings.

Then he died and all that he said came into force.

To all who believe in him, who have faith in him, who obey his teachings---they will be reconciled to God---receive his Spirit---and have eternal life.

Same thing taught by Jesus was taught by his disciples and even Paul.
 

JudgeRightly

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Don't obfuscate.

Do you even know what obfuscate means?

He had said Jesus never taught he would die.

Then QUOTE HIM saying it!

Because RD never said that, and HAS NOT BEEN saying it.

Now that I prove Jesus did teach he would die, he changed it to "but they didn't understand".

Uh, no, that's been the whole point all along, GT, that Jesus taught that he would die, but that no one understood it.

YOU'RE the one who says that Jesus taught that he would die and that everyone understood it the entire time, in DIRECT CONTRADICTION to SCRIPTURE, which, aside from the fact that He did not teach it UNTIL LATER IN HIS MINISTRY, says that they didn't even understand what he was saying, and even that it was HIDDEN from them.

So what if they didn't understand it yet?

It means what you've been saying this ENTIRE THREAD is wrong, and you should humble yourself and recognize when you're wrong!

They eventually did.

The point is that they didn't at first, you numbskull, which means that they COULD NOT HAVE TAUGHT THAT JESUS WOULD DIE, AND THEREFORE WHAT THEY TAUGHT AT THE BEGINNING WAS NOT WHAT PAUL TAUGHT, WHICH MAKES HIS GOSPEL DIFFERENT THAN THEIRS.

Why is that so hard for you to comprehend?

Not understanding doesn't change the truth.

You're the one trying to change the truth, which is that they could not have taught that Christ was to die because they didn't know he had to until LATE in His earthly ministry, which means that whatever they taught PRIOR to Luke 18 is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than what they taught AFTER He died.

It cannot by definition be the same gospel.

NO ONE was reconciled to God unless they believe and obey Jesus and received his Holy Spirit.

Jesus came and preached how to get saved, then died, and then gave the Holy Spirit after, to all, who believe and obey.

Hypocrite, stop obfuscating.
 

JudgeRightly

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I do not lie.

Then show your evidence.

Jesus taught he would die,

WHICH IS NOT IN DISPUTE.

BUT EVEN IF NO ONE EVER UNDERSTOOD IT AT THE TIME---ALL were taught that they MUST believe and obey Jesus to have eternal life. THEN, he HAD TO SHED his blood to make what he said to go into effect.

Which completely misses the point!

If JESUS DID NOT TEACH that He would die until the END of His ministry, and even then, when He DID teach it, no one understood it, then the disciples, who were with Him HIS ENTIRE MINISTRY, COULD NOT HAVE TAUGHT that He would die prior to Him dying. Which makes the ENTIRE GOSPEL THAT THEY TAUGHT, the "GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM" COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than that which Paul taught.

As for the Bible, it says lambs atoned for sins.

Lambs atoned for sins, yes. But they NEVER TOOK AWAY SINS.

AGAIN, atonement does not mean "taking away sins."

Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world once and for all.

Not in dispute.
 

JudgeRightly

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Thomas is an apostle and doubted, and you and RD say no one understood that Jesus had to die. SO WHAT if they didn't understand at the time? They were taught it and so what if they didn't understand everything that Jesus taught, or had doubts?

It means that they COULD NOT HAVE TAUGHT THAT CHRIST HAD TO DIE PRIOR TO HIM ACTUALLY DYING!

That by definition makes their gospel DIFFERENT than Paul's Gospel.
 

JudgeRightly

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The gospel is Jesus Christ.

There is more than one Gospel.

Jesus came with grace and taught faith.

He taught the law, which was undergirded by grace.

But that doesn't make it the gospel of grace, it makes it the gospel of the circumcision.

He said believe in Me, and to have faith, and to obey his teachings.

Again, a gospel of circumcision, not a gospel of grace.

Grace is that we don't have to do any more work, because of Christ's COMPLETED work on the Cross.

Then he died and all that he said came into force.

To all who believe in him, who have faith in him, who obey his teachings---they will be reconciled to God---receive his Spirit---and have eternal life.

Same thing taught by Jesus was taught by his disciples

Paul taught differently. Paul said those who have faith and NO WORKS, NO KEEPING THE LAW, ANY LAW.

and even Paul.

Saying it doesn't make it so.
 

God's Truth

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Do you even know what obfuscate means?
Prove it that I don't.

Then QUOTE HIM saying it!
Nope, not going through years of posts.

It he didn't say it, then let him PROVE WHY IT MATTERS if they understood it or not.

Because RD never said that, and HAS NOT BEEN saying it.

Again, then prove it what it matters.

Uh, no, that's been the whole point all along, GT, that Jesus taught that he would die, but that no one understood it.

Prove it means another gospel was taught then. Jesus came and taught how to get saved, and then died so that it could happen.
 

God's Truth

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Then show your evidence.
My evidence is the fact that you both go against what I say and say there are two different gospels.

WHICH IS NOT IN DISPUTE.

It is in dispute when you claim there are two different gospels.

Which completely misses the point!

If JESUS DID NOT TEACH that He would die until the END of His ministry,

It wasn't at the end.

and even then, when He DID teach it, no one understood it, then the disciples, who were with Him HIS ENTIRE MINISTRY, COULD NOT HAVE TAUGHT that He would die prior to Him dying.

Jesus taught HOW TO GET SAVED, and then he shed his blood for that will, the covenant.

Which makes the ENTIRE GOSPEL THAT THEY TAUGHT, the "GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM" COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than that which Paul taught.

No way, for Paul taught the one and only gospel that saves.

Lambs atoned for sins, yes. But they NEVER TOOK AWAY SINS.

Atonement is about taking sins away.


AGAIN, atonement does not mean "taking away sins."

You are badly mistaken.
 

God's Truth

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It means that they COULD NOT HAVE TAUGHT THAT CHRIST HAD TO DIE PRIOR TO HIM ACTUALLY DYING!

That by definition makes their gospel DIFFERENT than Paul's Gospel.

Paul taught JESUS CHRIST, AND HIM DYING. It is the SAME THING THAT JESUS TAUGHT when he walked the earth!
 

God's Truth

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There is more than one Gospel.
There is NOT more than one gospel. You say things the Bible doesn’t say nor imply and it goes against what the scriptures do say.

Gospel means Jesus Christ. There is ONLY one Jesus Christ. There is ONLY ONE Faith.

You cannot find any scripture ANYWHERE that says there are more than one gospel.

He taught the law, which was undergirded by grace.

Jesus CAME WITH GRACE AND TAUGHT FAITH.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.


Jesus taught believe/faith:


Matthew 9:28 When he had gone indoors, the blind men came to him, and he asked them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” “Yes, Lord,” they replied.

Matthew 18:6 [ Causing to Stumble ] “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Mark 1:15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

Mark 5:36 Overhearing what they said, Jesus told him, “Don’t be afraid; just believe.

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Luke 8:12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

Luke 8:13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

John 1:7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe.

John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

John 2:23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.

John 3:15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

John 4:39 [ Many Samaritans Believe ] Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.”

...and so many, many more.

Mark 11:22 “Have faith in God,” Jesus answered.

Luke 5:20 When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”

Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Luke 12:28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith!

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

John 12:42 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue;

Acts 3:16 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And by the faith of his Name, this one whom you see and know, he has restored and healed, and faith in him has given him this health before you all.”

Acts 6:5 This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism.

Acts 6:7 So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.



…and more.

JESUS TAUGHT THE NEW LAW.

YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING to say that Jesus taught the old law.

Does the old law say we must go through the man Jesus before going to the temple??!!



But that doesn't make it the gospel of grace, it makes it the gospel of the circumcision.

A person has to OBEY Jesus’ teachings, the things Jesus TAUGHT while he walked the earth---then they will receive the Holy Spirit and be circumcised in the heart. THAT IS TO ALL.

Do you really want to keep teaching that Jesus taught another gospel while he walked the earth---YET YOU SAY HE TAUGHT THE OLD LAW??!!

Make up your mind.

Did Jesus teach the old law or a new law?

Again, a gospel of circumcision, not a gospel of grace.

Jesus didn’t teach people how and when to get circumcised in the flesh!

Jesus IS THE CIRCUMCISER of the heart.

Jesus taught HOW TO get saved and then he died so that he could put into power all that he taught.

Grace is that we don't have to do any more work, because of Christ's COMPLETED work on the Cross.

Jesus NEVER EVER taught that we don’t have to do right. Paul never taught that we don’t have to do right.

The only WORKS we NO longer have to do is purify ourselves by doing the WORKS OF THE OLD LAW.

Jesus purifies us now.

Jesus taught that and then died to do that.

Paul taught differently. Paul said those who have faith and NO WORKS, NO KEEPING THE LAW, ANY LAW.

Paul taught the NEW LAW---the new law to repent of sins to GOD THROUGH JESUS.

Instead of just repenting of sins to God and bringing an animal to sacrifice, and living by doing various external washings and adhering to a special diet---PAUL taught what Jesus taught---forgiveness of sins through him, and NO MENTION of bringing him animals to sacrifice! And no mention of doing an external bath before coming to him. Jesus taught that HE WASHES US.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Jesus says it in the BIBLE.
 
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