"I came down from heaven"

Jacob

Jacob

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drbrumley said:
Why is it a mystery....I guess you would be right since Science cannot explain it...but we know the who, what, when and where and that's all we need to know.
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I don't understand it but I understand that it is a doctrine.
 
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Vail Lifted

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Jacob said:
Unless God's Son already exists or already existed.
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If someone exist then he cannot be born because born means to come into existence. After Jesus died he was reborn as firstborn from the dead. Meaning that when he died he went out of existence and was then born back into existence.
 
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drbrumley said:
Right on.....but I hope you're not misunderstanding what I am asking. Did the Jews and the Romans REALLY kill Jesus by their actions? The answer is yes they did in their hearts and minds but no in the way someone would crucify me and pierced my side.

Jesus said He laid down His own life, it was not taken from Him. There are serious theological implications in His words. The centurion could have stabbed Him a thousand times, until Jesus said it was time, He wasn't gonna die. Oh He was in agony, without a doubt. Lots and lots of pain. Probably more than any human being could sustain. But He gave up the ghost freely. It was not taken from Him. So with that said, Jesus is no ordinary human being. He was divine. They could not kill Him. He let them do the motions to think they did the deed, but they didn't. As the scriptures perfectly state, He gave Himself up for us. The perfect sacrifice. There is only one perfect being, and that is God. And Jesus is the 2nd person of the triune nature.
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Jesus told Pilate that he could have no power whatsoever unless it was given to him from above. Jesus was also delivered up according to God set plan and foreknowledge.

The Messiah being cut off was prophesied by Daniel.
 
Lon

Lon

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Vail Lifted said:
But Jesus DID have a human father and mother.
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Disagree, His Father was God. Joseph was his parent, not progenitor.

Vail Lifted said:
He is the son of Abraham and David.
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This through His mother's lineage.

Vail Lifted said:
He also has a human genealogy leading back to Adam.
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Do you agree, Matthew's genealogy was messianic/kingdom, rather than paternal in nature?

Vail Lifted said:
He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and thus is called the son of God. But he is also declared the son of God when he was raised from the dead and is now without human mother or father.
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Are you referring to Hebrews 7:3?
Vail Lifted said:
He is called the firstBORN from the dead because he went out of existence when he died and needed to be BORN or come into existence again by resurrection from the dead. The definition of BORN still hold s true. I don't need to change the meaning of words so to fit my ideas. I was told along time ago that to change the meaning of a word was to make a lie. Born then, still means born today. And it still refers to coming into existence.
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Tikto has a broader meaning than just 'born' thus born should be seen at least as figurative by possibility. To me, it isn't as clear of a passage (Revelation 1:5) as other passages for what you are intending to say. That is, I believe you are suggesting this term must/necessarily be 'born' and not simply 'first to rise from the dead' which is the case with the Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm not sure if the difference needs addressed, as I don't think it relates closely to Jesus Christ being born by immaculate conception of the Holy Spirit. He is literally, the offspring of God. We are by adoption. Etc. There are large differences so I hope it has been demonstrated that we have to substantiate anything we say about the Lord Jesus Christ's humanity and birth especially as it does and does not relate to us. There are many incredible distinctions. -Lon
 
k0de

k0de

Active member
Vail Lifted said:
No, I belong to no Christian sect.

I don't believed Jesus existed before he existed. He was born of a woman. And to be born of a woman means to come into existence. It's what being born means, and I can see the truth of what it means, so I don't find it necessary to change the definition of what it means.
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Yes born of a woman. But what about the virgin conception?
 
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Vail Lifted

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k0de said:
Yes born of a woman. But what about the virgin conception?
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Mary was caused to gift birth, or bring into existence, the promised seed/offspring of Abraham and David.

The Gentiles before receiving the gospel, were strangers to the covenants of promise, and without hope and without God.
 
k0de

k0de

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Vail Lifted said:
Mary was caused to gift birth, or bring into existence, the promised seed/offspring of Abraham and David.
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That's pretty good but this one is better.

Matthew:

1: 21. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

22. All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:

23. "The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").

So is Joseph dream a hoax?

The Gentiles before receiving the gospel, were strangers to the covenants of promise, and without hope and without God.
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How is Mary a gentile? If she is from the lineage of David. Isn't she from Isreal?
 
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Vail Lifted

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k0de said:
That's pretty good but this one is better.

Matthew:

1: 21. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

22. All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:

23. "The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").

So is Joseph dream a hoax?



How is Mary a gentile? If she is from the lineage of David. Isn't she from Isreal?
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Josephs dream was not a hoax. Jesus is God with us. Jesus said that if you seen him you seen his Father(God). Simple as that.

Do you have difficulty understanding Jesus as God?

Heres' how simple it is. Jesus said "I have come in my Father's name". Now what could be more clear than that?
 
k0de

k0de

Active member
Vail Lifted said:
Josephs dream was not a hoax. Jesus is God with us. Jesus said that if you seen him you seen his Father(God). Simple as that.

Do you have difficulty understanding Jesus as God?

Heres' how simple it is. Jesus said "I have come in my Father's name". Now what could be more clear than that?
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What? Now you confused me. So what you are claming when you wrote:

The words I speak are spirit and truth" said Jesus. His words are therefore the words of the Spirit which dwelt fully in him.So what was it(he) who came down from heaven? He (it) was the Spirit of the Father that DECENDED on the son. The words the son speaks are the words of the Father by the Spirit of the Father. And if the Spirit of the Father is the Father, then it was the Father, by His Spirit that came down from heaven whereby the doctrines Jesus taught were not his own (he says) but the Father's.
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