Does God know the future?

Clete · Jun 22, 2005

kmoney said:
HA, ..... I've always answered "No" to questions like that...

sorry to disappoint you but no progress has been made. haha.

Man! Disapointed is right! That's for sure. :nono:

Is the "no" answer an honest one or not?

kmoney · Jun 22, 2005

Clete,

I agree that it is a powerful argument but it very simply is not the only way that God could know that future. If every event is the only possible result of whatever caused it to happen then God could simply follow the causal chain of events in His mind and thereby know the future without having to create it. And I'm sure that if we thought about it we could come up with even more ways by which the future could be known which actually makes my argument even more powerful than philosophizer's because it makes no difference how or by what means God knows the future because my argument is simply based on the definition of the term "free will".

Ok

You don't get to just simply disagree Kevin, that's dishonest (intellectually). I'm mean if you want to reject the conclusion that's fine but it's irrational to do so without rejecting at least one of the premises upon which the conclusion is based. To just flatly disagree is the equivalent of saying, "I don't like it so it isn't true". It doesn't work that way.

Sorry, I'll try to explain why I disagree. I'm saying this....God knowing the future doesn't sufficient to nullify our free will. What could nullify our free will is HOW God knows the future.

This is a fine syllogism but I think the weak point here is premise two, "For God to know the future God would have to create it."

I thought I remember you saying in an earlier post that the future doesn't exist so God can't know it. Am I wrong?

Well first of all God did not come into being from nothing, He didn't come into being at all, He's just always been.

Is that not illogical?

Kevin

Nathon Detroit · Jun 22, 2005

kmoney said:
Knight,

I don't know.....but if God has knowledge of what will happen that doesn't mean He can't have feelings about that knowledge.

Kevin

Yet if those feelings are expectations what then?

Humor me . . .

What do you think God is trying to say about His foreknowledge regarding Israel....

Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected it to bring forth good grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes. 3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

kmoney · Jun 22, 2005

Clete said:
Man! Disapointed is right! That's for sure. :nono:

Is the "no" answer an honest one or not?

Yes....The "No" is an honest answer. If God has perfect foreknowledge than no, you would not be able to act differently because that would negate that perfect foreknowledge.

and again, my answer "No" is what I always would have answered, that is why I said no progress was made...

Kevin

Nathon Detroit · Jun 22, 2005

kmoney said:
Yes....The "No" is an honest answer. If God has perfect foreknowledge than no, you would not be able to act differently because that would negate that perfect foreknowledge.

Kevin

Why is that simple logic so hard for some to understand???

kmoney · Jun 22, 2005

Knight said:
Why is that simple logic so hard for some to understand???

HAHA, this is what is going to frustrate you.....

I still believe that God's foreknowledge on it's own does not negate our free will. What I DO think could negate our free will is HOW God knows the future. IF God can know the future WITHOUT creating it, then I believe that foreknowledge does not nullify our free will. But if God has to create the future to know it than yes, we have no free will.

Kevin

philosophizer · Jun 22, 2005

Okay, what other ways could God conceivably know the future if not by creating it?

kmoney · Jun 22, 2005

Knight said:
Yet if those feelings are expectations what then?

Humor me . . .

What do you think God is trying to say about His foreknowledge regarding Israel....

Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected it to bring forth good grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes. 3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

I think he's saying He doesn't understand why Israel would not follow Him. He promised them the good life and yet, they still chose their own way. He's saying "Throw me a frickin bone here! what did I need to do for them to follow me!"

Kevin

Nathon Detroit · Jun 22, 2005

kmoney said:
HAHA, this is what is going to frustrate you.....

I still believe that God's foreknowledge on it's own does not negate our free will. What I DO think could negate our free will is HOW God knows the future. IF God can know the future WITHOUT creating it, then I believe that foreknowledge does not nullify our free will. But if God has to create the future to know it than yes, we have no free will.

Kevin

:bang:

It's irrelevant how God obtained this perfect foreknowedge.

The fact remains that if God has perfect foreknowledge it must be set. The actual outcome MUST match the knowledge that was obtained beforehand (by whatever means). Therefore there is NO other possible outcome than the actual outcome. Which of course SETS or closes the future to the version contained in God's foreknowledge.

philosophizer · Jun 22, 2005

kmoney said:
He's saying "Throw me a frickin bone here! what did I need to do for them to follow me!"

Shouldn't He have known?

nancy · Jun 22, 2005

God's knowing is his doing so yes he does create the future.

God creates some things to have free will or be contingent by their contingent nature. This doesn't take away their free will or their nature. god defines their nature.

How will contingent things aim towards God's goals? By contingency or proximation the goals God's set for them.

Nathon Detroit · Jun 22, 2005

kmoney said:
I think he's saying He doesn't understand why Israel would not follow Him. He promised them the good life and yet, they still chose their own way. He's saying "Throw me a frickin bone here! what did I need to do for them to follow me!"

Kevin

But that isn't what the verse says.

God says He EXPECTED good grapes. How could you feel comfortable flatly changing the verse just to suit your theology?

P.S. Your explanation doesn't really help your position because if God has perfect foreknowledge He would indeed understand why Israel produced "wild grapes".

kmoney · Jun 22, 2005

philosophizer said:
Shouldn't He have known?

No.

Poly · Jun 22, 2005

kmoney said:
No.

:darwinsm:

:hammer: :dizzy: :freak:

Nathon Detroit · Jun 22, 2005

kmoney said:
No.

Do we have a smilie with a head that just starts spinning and then eventually just falls off?

kmoney · Jun 22, 2005

Knight said:
But that isn't what the verse says.

God says He EXPECTED good grapes. How could you feel comfortable flatly changing the verse just to suit your theology?

P.S. Your explanation doesn't really help your position because if God has perfect foreknowledge He would indeed understand why Israel produced "wild grapes".

Knight,

How could you feel comfortable flatly changing the verse just to suit your theology?

My response doesn't fit the theology of God knowing the future.

4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

The verse says, "What more could have been done....". So isn't that God asking what could have been done for them to follow God?

P.S. Your explanation doesn't really help your position because if God has perfect foreknowledge He would indeed understand why Israel produced "wild grapes".

If I said otherwise I apologize, because I agree with that. He would know "why".

Kevin

Poly · Jun 22, 2005

Knight said:
Do we have a smilie with a head that just starts spinning and then eventually just falls off?

Or how about a smilie who takes his brain out and throws it out the window.

kmoney · Jun 22, 2005

Knight said:
Do we have a smilie with a head that just starts spinning and then eventually just falls off?

I said....
"He's saying "Throw me a frickin bone here! what did I need to do for them to follow me!"

philosophizer responded....
"Shouldn't He have known?"

I said no because of this....He would know why they didn't follow Him, but He wouldn't know what in which scenario the Israelites would have followed Him. If God has foreknowledge it is of His creation. He couldn't formulate other scenarios to find out what the Israelites would have done.

Kevin

Nathon Detroit · Jun 22, 2005

Poly said:
Or how about a smilie who takes his brain out and throws it out the window.

:chuckle:

philosophizer · Jun 22, 2005

kmoney said:
If God has foreknowledge it is of His creation. He couldn't formulate other scenarios to find out what the Israelites would have done.

Why not?

Does God know the future?

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