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Thread: The Bible and Abortion

  1. #31
    One Post Wonder
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    Firstly, I am going to guess you've never felt the horrible pain and suffering of being raped.

    But my main point. Everything you just said, in the entire post, condemns Jesus Christ for dying for your sins. Would you prefer he hadn't? He died not of his own sin, but was killed for humans, for your own sin. You say that no man should be punished for the doing of their son, or vice versa. We are all children of God, yes? And Jesus was murdered for our actions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lolinthea23 View Post
    Firstly, I am going to guess you've never felt the horrible pain and suffering of being raped.
    Someone I care a great deal for was and if that happened to you then I'm as sorry for it happening as a human being can be. Horrific thing.

    That said, I've never been murdered either.

    But my main point. Everything you just said, in the entire post, condemns Jesus Christ for dying for your sins. Would you prefer he hadn't? He died not of his own sin, but was killed for humans, for your own sin. You say that no man should be punished for the doing of their son, or vice versa. We are all children of God, yes? And Jesus was murdered for our actions.
    No. Jesus bought our sin, extended grace through an act of sacrifice in love. That's what love does. That's what those who stand between the butcher and the infant do. That's what you've yet to understand and so long as you and others like you continue to misapprehend the slaughter of innocents will continue. God help us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolinthea23 View Post
    Firstly, I am going to guess you've never felt the horrible pain and suffering of being raped. But my main point. Everything you just said, in the entire post, condemns Jesus Christ for dying for your sins. Would you prefer he hadn't? He died not of his own sin, but was killed for humans, for your own sin. You say that no man should be punished for the doing of their son, or vice versa. We are all children of God, yes? And Jesus was murdered for our actions.
    How many have you had?
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    Does Whatever A Light-House Can Lighthouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolinthea23 View Post
    Firstly, I am going to guess you've never felt the horrible pain and suffering of being raped.

    But my main point. Everything you just said, in the entire post, condemns Jesus Christ for dying for your sins. Would you prefer he hadn't? He died not of his own sin, but was killed for humans, for your own sin. You say that no man should be punished for the doing of their son, or vice versa. We are all children of God, yes? And Jesus was murdered for our actions.
    This was in response to whom?

    And how does anything posted herein [this thread] condemn Jesus Christ for willingly laying down His life? To say that one should not be forced to pay for the sin of another, especially when the one who is innocent in that scenario is unable to be willing to take the punishment due another has no bearing on one's belief regarding Jesus' act of sacrifice for all mankind.


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    Gold level Subscriber Bob Enyart's Avatar
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    tetelestai, did you read the OP?

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    As a Christian I see no proof in the Bible that life begins at conception. ... So, do fetuses have souls? I find nothing in the Bible that says they do.
    tetelestai, some day when you have time, why not read the opening post. You might enjoy it.

    As for God "breathing life," He did that when He created Adam, and the life that God put into Adam enabled him, and us, to procreate. God ceased from His creation on the sixth day. It's wrong to assume that when a man commits incest, that God is hovering over the girl deciding whether to "breath life" into her. What actually happens is that God has created man, like a thousand other species, with reproductive organs, and when biologically, the gametes join, a new organism is created.

    Trees and other plants have no soul but only a body, so it is impossible to have a relationship with a tree (huggers notwithstanding). The Bible teaches that animals have a body and a soul (nephesh), and so when two collies have pups, those pups have a body and a soul, and the soul is required so that they can experience rudimentary emotions and have relationships with one another and with people.

    Human beings are body, soul, and spirit, and so when human reproduction occurs, our offspring are fully human, meaning that they've inherited their human nature from their parents, which is why they inherit the flesh from Adam, and will sin against God given the opportunity, for all have sinned.

    tetelestai, if God were creating each human being, the inheritance of mankind's fallen nature would not be necessary, and we could then have a world in which not all humans fell. But all the world sinned in Adam, for we are of Adam.

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    Over 500 post club nicholsmom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    ...

    Published with the permission of....
    American Right To Life
    Does this mean that I can link this on facebook?

    It's fantastic
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    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    As a Christian I see no proof in the Bible that life begins at conception. In fact, when looked at closely, the Bible affirms that life begins at birth, not conception.
    Then why does God demand life for life punishment if an unborn child is killed?
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    I would like to note that many medieval church fathers considered kids to become alive in the womb at "quickening", roughly the third month, when the kid starts spontaneously moving.

    They do not address early term abortion that much, and we all can agree that late term abortion is homicide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nydhogg View Post
    I would like to note that many medieval church fathers considered kids to become alive in the womb at "quickening", roughly the third month, when the kid starts spontaneously moving.

    They do not address early term abortion that much, and we all can agree that late term abortion is homicide.
    Thanks for your input. (Yes, seriously.) However, considering what Knight points out in regards to Exodus 21:22 would you say they were biblically correct?

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    Harm? To whom?
    To the mother or to the child?


    They speak of "give birth prematurely", not "miscarry". I can only assume that the choice of words by the translator is deliberate, because a premature birth and a miscarriage are different things.

    If "harm" refers to the mother, the child isn't even taken in consideration by the Bible.

    If "harm" refers to the child, it gets tricky. A premature birth "harms" the child whether he survives the ordeal or not (though it's more harmful if the child doesn't, obviously).


    There's a lot of scholastic exegesis of this particular verse. I'm not sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nydhogg View Post
    Harm? To whom?
    To the mother or to the child?

    They speak of "give birth prematurely", not "miscarry". I can only assume that the choice of words by the translator is deliberate, because a premature birth and a miscarriage are different things.

    If "harm" refers to the mother, the child isn't even taken in consideration by the Bible.

    If "harm" refers to the child, it gets tricky. A premature birth "harms" the child whether he survives the ordeal or not (though it's more harmful if the child doesn't, obviously).
    I said, "considering what Knight points out in regards to Exodus 21:22" in order to draw your attention to what Knight points out in regards to Exodus 21:22. I think he covered it pretty well. If you disagree, you can always explain where and why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nydhogg View Post
    There's a lot of scholastic exegesis of this particular verse. I'm not sure.
    Then why make note of what "many medieval church fathers" thought? As a protestant Christian I don't really care what they thought, nor would I expect many other Christians to. Their arguments might be persuasive but you haven't presented any. I assume then you believe simply their declaring this would be persuasive of itself. If you're not sure what the biblical position on abortion is, then why present something you think will persuade one way or the other? That strikes me as pretty dishonest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaryContrary View Post
    I said, "considering what Knight points out in regards to Exodus 21:22" in order to draw your attention to what Knight points out in regards to Exodus 21:22. I think he covered it pretty well. If you disagree, you can always explain where and why.

    Then why make note of what "many medieval church fathers" thought? As a protestant Christian I don't really care what they thought, nor would I expect many other Christians to. Their arguments might be persuasive but you haven't presented any. I assume then you believe simply their declaring this would be persuasive of itself. If you're not sure what the biblical position on abortion is, then why present something you think will persuade one way or the other? That strikes me as pretty dishonest.
    No love lost for St. Agustine et al, then?

    Not that he was living Scripture, but he had a reputation for good exegesis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nydhogg View Post
    No love lost for St. Agustine et al, then?

    Not that he was living Scripture, but he had a reputation for good exegesis.
    Never mind, then.

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    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    Then why does God demand life for life punishment if an unborn child is killed?
    Since this wasn't answered, one more time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nydhogg View Post
    Harm? To whom?
    To the mother or to the child?
    Are you really that stupid? It has already been established the mother has been harmed.

    Then the text says if no harm then no harm when talking about the child. The punishment of life for life is for the child.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

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    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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    The exegesis of that particular Bible verse is complicated.

    For example, this very interpretation:

    Manslaughter is not murder. A person being accidentally hurt during a fight between third parties would be manslaughter, not murder, according to traditional Biblical law.

    In fact, it is assuming that the child is born alive, or else it would use the word "miscarry" and not "premature birth".

    Whether "harm results" could perfectly refer to whether the woman is killed. Accidental manslaughter is not murder, but if a pregnant woman is killed by accident, THEN it calls blood for blood.


    It is a plausible interpretation, and one of the interpretations that I've read.



    It might not be the CORRECT one, but it's plausible.


    If the killing that deserves blood for blood is that of the unborn, why is that unborn more than other victim of manslaughter?

    Why doesn't use "miscarry" when it refers to the baby who would be dead, and "premature birth" when it results in a live baby. Y'know, instead of an obscure "harm is/is not done" unless it's referring to whether the harm is for the mother?
    Last edited by Nydhogg; September 13th, 2010 at 05:41 PM.

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