User Tag List

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 64

Thread: The Bible and Abortion

  1. #16
    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Within a whisper of rivers...
    Posts
    17,644
    Thanks
    2,278
    Thanked 5,013 Times in 2,957 Posts

    Blog Entries
    15
    Mentioned
    22 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147780
    Quote Originally Posted by Little Buzz View Post
    ...My point is that it isn't for anyone other than the woman to say what will increase her suffering. No-one else can possibly know.
    The value of life is fairly universal. In our culture, we prize it sufficiently (and wonder at the state of those who do not sufficiently value it) to institute laws prohibiting a person from taking their own.

    If this mother can end the life within her without that act causing her additional suffering then some other and greater injury has preceded it or she is lacking in something essential to her humanity that impairs her ability to make the decision from an informed perspective.

    Excellent post, Knight.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

    Pro-Life







  2. #17
    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    11,788
    Thanks
    44
    Thanked 366 Times in 336 Posts

    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    314701
    Quote Originally Posted by John Ladder View Post
    Observe that Job indicates that he is a person at birth; he was an "I" as he was evicted (as my wife would say!) from the womb. But, if he was a person at birth, then he was a person at least just before birth.
    You are attempting to make the scriptures say something they do not.

    (Isaiah 2:22) Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils

    Isaiah uses the words “breath” and “nostrils” to describe soul life in humanity after the Fall. This is the same description used for the creation of Adam’s soul life in Genesis 2:7. Mankind is forever dependent upon God for soul life. That God creates this soul life immediately at birth becomes apparent from another verse in Isaiah.

    (Isaiah 57:16) For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

    At the time of God’s choosing, soul life and biological life separate and physical-death results. The destiny of these two categories of human life at physical death is the subject of another passage.

    (Eccl 12:7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    When the soul departs from the body, physical death occurs. At that time biological life ends and returns to dust. “Dust” is used to describe the substance from which biological life was formed in Genesis 2:7. Biological life is organic and genetic. Biological life does not return to God but to the earth from whence it came. But soul life, ‘breath” (ruach in Hebrew), given by God, returns to Him at physical death for eternal disposition.

    Isaiah further substantiates the Old Testament assurance of God’s immediate formation of soul life at birth:

    (Isaiah 42:5) Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

    Note the first part of verse 5 describes God’s past activity of creation; the verbs are in the past tense. In contrast the last verb “gives” is in the present tense. From Adam through the time Isaiah wrote until the end of human history God sovereignly bestows His “breath,” the spark of life, to anyone He so chooses as they emerge from the womb.

    A fetus does not breathe; therefore a fetus does not have a soul.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

  3. #18
    Rookie John Ladder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    37
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    90
    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    You are attempting to make the scriptures say something they do not.

    ...

    A fetus does not breathe; therefore a fetus does not have a soul.
    Of course, you are streeeeeching scripture. None of these indicate the time of ensoulment. Also, I notice that you have nothing to say about my reply on the Job text.

    Your breathing conclusion isn't quite convincing. The unborn child ingests amniotic fluid as a precursor to breathing. And, I still have my soul when I hold my breath. :squint:

  4. #19
    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    11,788
    Thanks
    44
    Thanked 366 Times in 336 Posts

    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    314701
    Quote Originally Posted by John Ladder View Post
    Of course, you are streeeeeching scripture. None of these indicate the time of ensoulment. Also, I notice that you have nothing to say about my reply on the Job text.
    Job said that he wished he could climb back in his mother's womb, be born, and then die.

    If Job thought that souls were imparted at conception then Job would have said that he wished he could climb back in his mother's womb and die. Job would have left out the "be born" part.

    The unborn child ingests amniotic fluid as a precursor to breathing
    And that's what it is; a precursor. Before the first breath, there is no soul.

    Your breathing conclusion isn't quite convincing. The unborn child ingests amniotic fluid as a precursor to breathing. And, I still have my soul when I hold my breath. :squint:
    God breathes life at birth. God also imputes the sin of Adam at birth, it's a one time event for each.

    Holding your breath has nothing to do with the soul, nor will trying to live a sin free life effect your sin nature that was imputed to you because of Adam.

    The Bible says life begins at birth:

    (Eccl 3:2) A time to be born, and a time to die;...

    (Luke 2:11) For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

    (John 3:7) You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

    (John 8:58) I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

    (Gal 4:4) But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,

    (Luke 7:28) I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

    (Mark 7:26) The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia

    (Matt 1:16) and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

    Besides the above verses, there are about 50 other verses I could quote that show life begins at birth, not conception.

    If you have any verses that show that life begins at conception feel free to post them.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

  5. #20
    Rookie John Ladder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    37
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    90
    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Besides the above verses, there are about 50 other verses I could quote that show life begins at birth, not conception.

    If you have any verses that show that life begins at conception feel free to post them.
    Stay focused, please. You have not given a single verse in defense of your original point. You were going to show us at least one passage which supports your view that spiritual life doesn't begin until birth. None of those passages help you. Born is as born does. Anyway, biological life begins at conception. Your task--strange though it is--is to provide biblical support to help persuade us that we should be less cautious concerning infant life inside the womb. And, I see that you still avoid my comments on the Job passage from earlier.

    Or, you can just admit you don't have anything and concede the point. All you're doing is lending a hand to pro-abortion advocates, anyway.

  6. #21
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    God's earth
    Posts
    89
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    128
    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post


    The Bible contains passages that have bearing on the abortion issue in America, and specifically to the crime of killing the unborn child, and generally, to the principles of life and death.

    Abortion for Incest: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall the children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin." –Deuteronomy 24:16
    Once a person sees that the Bible clearly teaches that it is wrong to kill a child for the crime of his or her father, that frees the person to get beyond the cliché and look more closely at the actual result of abortion for incest. Because it is wrong to kill the child for the crime of the father, there are other terrible consequences, including that abortion for rape and incest emboldens those criminals and increases such crimes against women. Abortion for incest is cruel, as for example, Planned Parenthood abortionists cover up the crime of incest, and typically send the victim back home to her rapist. Even worse, they often send her home with her rapist, the same criminal who brought her to the clinic to dispose of the "evidence" and help him get away with his crime. Abortion for incest actually emboldens a criminal to rape his young relative and then tempts him to repeat his crime, and is not compassionate because it kills a baby and increases the woman's suffering.

    Abortion for Rape: "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son… the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." –God, Ezekiel 18:20
    Of course incest is a particular kind of rape, and the same scriptural teaching, here as spoken by God Himself, condemns all such punishment of the child for the crime of the father. This principle as recorded by the Hebrew prophet Ezekiel explains that a good man would love and protect the baby, but instead many lawyers and others will treat the rapist with respect and protect him, but kill the baby.

    Children in the Womb: "Rebekah his wife conceived [and] the children struggled together within her." –Moses, Genesis 25:22
    "Behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. Now drink no wine or similar drink… for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb…" –Judges 13:7
    "[John] will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. And… the babe leaped in her womb…" –Luke 1:15, 41
    "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you…" –Jeremiah 1:5
    The most famous twins in the history of the world, Jacob and Esau, fraternal twins, are called "children" in the Scriptures while they are in the womb. And of course, to this day, twins grab hold of one another in the womb, and unborn children suck their thumbs, play with their toes, sleep, dream, and even learn the melodies of songs, and their own mother's voice. Regarding God's command to the woman who later bore Samson, to not drink wine, her "child" would be a Nazirite "from the womb," for a Nazirite is a person who, among other things, does not drink alcohol. Modern child-welfare laws in 18 states (AZ, CA, FL, IL, IN, IA, MD, MA, MI, MN, NV, OK, RI, SC, TX, UT, VA, WI) recognize that a pregnant mother who drinks alcohol not only can harm her child, but can inflict him or her with fetal alcohol syndrome. Also, fetal thirst helps regulate the amount of amniotic fluid in the womb. Excess amniotic fluid, called hydramnios (or polyhydramnios) affects 2% of pregnancies and can be somewhat alleviated by fetal swallowing (and eventual expelling) of amniotic fluid, which swallowing can be increased by injection into the womb of an artificial hunger stimulator (peptide) or even by the mother eating sweets.

    Crime of Killing the Innocent: "Do not kill the innocent." –Exodus 23:7
    "On your skirts is found the blood of the lives of the poor innocents. I have not found it by secret search, but plainly… Yet you say, 'Because I am innocent, Surely His anger shall turn from me.' Behold [says God], I will plead My case against you, because you say, 'I have not sinned.'" –Jer. 2:34-35
    "Your eyes and your heart are for nothing but your covetousness, for shedding innocent blood, and practicing oppression and violence." –Jer. 22:17
    "For they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands… and even sacrificed their sons…" –Ezekiel 23:37
    …that no man might make his son or his daughter pass through the fire to Molech. –2 Kings 23:10
    "You shall not murder." –God Exodus 20:13
    The intentional killing of the innocent is murder. Abortionists refer to the unborn children they kill as tissue and tumors, and many "conservative" politicians refer to the babies they support killing as "exceptions." But God didn't care about all the fruit Eve did not eat; nor did He mention all the women David did not violate; nor list the children whom Herod did not kill. God looks at the exceptions. He calls them children, who are made in His image and likeness. Because abortion is a public venture, except for those individually forgiven by God through faith in Jesus Christ, there is a corporate guilt for the shedding of innocent blood.

    Crime of Killing the Unborn is Murder:
    "If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." –Exodus 21:22-25

    Exodus 21:22 is the first fetal homicide law and concerns the child killed unintentionally during a separate assault. Pro-abortion theologians wrongly interpret this passage to mean that the baby is dead (miscarriage) and only if the woman dies is the penalty then life for life. But the passage distinguishes between the baby who survives the assault and the baby who dies. The meaning turns on whether the woman has a miscarriage or gives birth prematurely. And the Hebrew verb used is NOT that for miscarriage. Therefore the passage imposes only a fine on the criminal who accidentally causes a premature birth, but the punishment is life for life if the baby then dies. This shows that God equated the life of the unborn with that of the born, and abortion with murder. This passage, like Exodus 21:33-36, 22:5-6, and others, teaches that those who cause injury are responsible for their actions, even if the harm was unintentionally. If Exodus 21:22 spoke of an assault that caused a miscarriage, the teaching would then support abortion in that it would show that the life of a fetus is worth only a fine, and if the mother later died, her death would require taking the criminal's life. But note the word used to describe the consequence of the crime described in Exodus 21:22, "If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely," the Hebrew word for miscarriage, shaw-kole, is NOT used. If the baby came out dead, a monetary fine would indicate a less than human value for the life of the fetus. However, because Exodus 21:22 says premature birth, and not miscarriage, the passage does not support a right to kill an unborn child, as contended by many who mistranslate this text. Rather, the text values the unborn child's life equal to that of any other person. The author Moses (Mat. 12:26) mentions the idea of a baby coming out of the womb twice within three chapters. In Exodus 23:26, he uses the Hebrew word for miscarriage, speaking of barrenness and shaw-kole (miscarriage). But the word at Exodus 21:22 is yaw-tsaw, which means to come out, come forth, bring forth, and has no connotation of death but in fact the opposite.(וְכִֽי־יִנָּצ֣וּ אֲנָשִׁ֗ים וְנָ֨גְפ֜וּ אִשָּׁ֤ה הָרָה֙ וְיָצְא֣וּ יְלָדֶ֔יהָ וְלֹ֥א יִהְיֶ֖ה אָסֹ֑ון עָנֹ֣ושׁ יֵעָנֵ֗שׁ כַּֽאֲשֶׁ֨ר יָשִׁ֤ית עָלָיו֙ בַּ֣עַל הָֽאִשָּׁ֔ה וְנָתַ֖ן בִּפְלִלִֽים׃) The Hebrew Scriptures use yaw-tsaw 1,043 times beginning with Genesis 1:24 where God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature…” In Genesis and Exodus alone Moses uses this word about 150 times such as in Genesis 25 describing the births of twins Jacob and Esau. Thus the Mosaic law requires the criminal to pay financial restitution to a woman unintentionally injured by a criminal if she "gives birth prematurely." But then if the baby dies, the text applies the full Hebrew idiom which means that the punishment should fit the crime. If there is harm beyond a premature birth, and the unborn child dies, then the punishment is "life for life."

    The Fetus Has Emotions:
    "As soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy." –Luke 1:44
    The Scripture refers to the fetus as a baby (brephos) and does not use a non-human or non-personhood term. In Greek Ἐλισάβετ... ἐσκίρτησεν τὸ βρέφος [transliteration brephos, babe, infant] ἐν τῇ κοιλίᾳ mοu. Thus the baby, who would be named John, experienced the emotion of joy when Mary, being pregnant with the incarnate Jesus, entered Elizabeth's home.

    Judging with Righteous Judgment: "You have rightly judged." –Jesus, Luke 7:43
    "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." –Jesus, John 7:24
    “Why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right?” –Jesus, Luke 12:56-57
    "First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly [to judge, i.e.] to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye” –Jesus, Mat. 7:5
    Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? –1 Cor 6:2-3
    “Those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, and a good blessing will come upon them.” –Prov. 24:25
    He who is spiritual judges all things… for… we have the mind of Christ. –1 Cor 2:15-16
    Jesus commanded men to judge rightly and He said, “judge not.” Did the Lord contradict Himself? Or does the Bible say more about judging than many realize? Jesus taught men to judge rightly insisting they “judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24). And the Apostle Paul shamed the Corinthian Christians because no one among them was willing to even “judge the smallest matters” (1 Cor. 6:2). Otherwise, Christians would have to give a pass to terrorists and child pornographers. Today, millions of Christians have been seduced into relativism, where there are no absolutes, except for turning Christ's qualified don't judge itself into an absolute. Churchgoers repeat that mantra if anyone admonishes them for sexual immorality or for killing their child, thereby replacing God's absolutes with the moral relativist dream. (For a full treatment of the Bible's teaching to judge correctly and not according to appearance, see Judge Rightly is Not Some Guy's Name.)
    Kids Especially Loved by God: Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you... –Jeremiah 1:5
    Jesus created children: Isa. 43:7; John 1:3; Col. 1:16; Ps. 139:13-16
    Then God the Son became flesh: Jn. 1:1, 14; Phil. 2:5, 7; Isa. 7:14
    The Babe was born in Bethlehem: Luke 2:1, 4-6; Ps. 87:5-6; Micah 5:2
    He lived as a Child: Isa. 9:6; Luke 2:42, 48, 51-52
    Jesus loves children including in the womb: Jer. 1:5; Mat. 18:2, 5; Mark 10:14-16; Gal. 1:5
    He is the Friend of every child: [Heb. 2:17-18; 4:15]
    He healed children: Mat. 15:28; 17:18
    He saved a child from death: Mark 5:23, 41-42
    He blesses others through them: Ps. 127:3; John 6:9-10
    He praised the childlike attitude: Mat. 18:2-4
    The Lord attracted children: Mat. 21:15
    Their Friend just happens to be the eternal God, born of mankind:
    - eternal: Micah 5:2; Isa. 9:6; Rev. 1:8
    - of Adam & Eve, Abraham, and David: Lk. 3:23, 38; 1 Cor. 15:45; Gen. 3:15; 22:18; 2 Sam. 7:12-13
    Jesus warned against harming children: Mat. 18:2, 6; Mark 13:12
    Blesses believers who protect children: Mark 9:36-37; Mat. 25:41-46
    Love Your Neighbor – Responsibility to Intervene: "Deliver those drawn toward death." –Proverbs 24:11
    Do not "do evil that good may come." –Romans 3:8
    “If anyone is found slain…and it is not known who killed him, then… measure the distance… to the surrounding cities… And it shall be that the elders of the city nearest to the slain man… shall answer and say, ‘Our hands have not shed this blood, nor have our eyes seen it… do not lay innocent blood to the charge of Your people… So you shall put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you when you do what is right in the sight of the LORD." –Deuteronomy 21:1-3, 7-9
    No Christian in America can say to God about abortion, "We did not know it, our eyes have not seen it," for child killing is openly bragged about, and God gives no believer the latitude to be apathetic toward these children nor their families, which apathy itself would be a form of hatred toward one's neighbor. Individual Christians have the forgiveness purchased by the blood of Jesus Christ. However by requiring the authorities to measure the distance and determine the city nearest to the crime, God is recognizing the corporate guilt of society knowing that the community that tolerates the shedding of innocent blood becomes increasingly godless. Children and grandchildren then suffer by living in that increasing godlessness. Of the Samaritans, Jesus told the woman at the well that you "worship what you do not know" (John 4:22) whereas "salvation is of the Jews." Yet in the Parable of the Good Samaritan when criminals left a victim "half dead… a certain priest… passed by on the other side… But a certain Samaritan… had compassion… Then Jesus said…, "Go and do likewise" (Luke 10:25-37). Jesus did not mean that His followers should behave like the religious leader who was apathetic, but rather, loving God and loving your neighbor requires intervention on behalf of the innocent.

    The Sanctity of Unborn Life – Biblical Fetology: "For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb… My frame [skeleton] was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth [womb; see below]. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them." –Psalm 139:13-16
    God wrote the book of fetology, that is, the development of the baby in the womb which is described in the human genome and the gametes of the parents. That book documents the course of a child's fetal development and birth. In verse 16, David is bragging about God's extraordinary design of the development of the baby in the womb. The embryo goes through the trimesters of development not haphazardly but by direction from God. The child forms in the womb by God's intricate plan of fetal development, which we now know He recorded in the written instructions of our DNA and in the cells of the ovum and sperm which unite to form the single-celled brand new human child (organism). That single cell contains step-by-step, day-by-day directions of the 280 days of gestation which the Spirit inspired David to write about, the days of the child's development in the womb. "You formed my inward parts; you covered me in my mother’s womb," explains that God designed the process by which the baby is formed, protecting the little one (Latin, fetus) within his mom. "My frame [skeleton] was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth." David praised God, for even as he developed in the womb, God could see his frame (Hebrew, skeleton, lit. bones) being knit together, "skillfully wrought," in "my mother's womb." The Hebrew idiom, "the lowest parts of the earth" was a common expression for "the womb" as one can see from the reverse use of the idiom in Job 1:21, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return there." No one returns to their mother's womb at death, but rather, goes into the grave, i.e., the lowest parts of the earth, which phrase came to be a Hebrew figure representing the womb, even as Man was made from the earth, the dust of the ground. The genetic code written by God describes the development of the baby in the womb, so God reveals, "Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed (as the baby travels down the fallopian tube, even before he is formed in the womb, Jer. 1:5) and in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them." God sees the child, who he or she really is, the baby's substance, all through the extraordinary DNA code which God wrote (which David of course had no concept of, but which as the author, God knew all about). So, from the moment of conception, "being yet unformed," that is, as just a single cell in my mother's fallopian tube, God saw me, and knit me together, and in His book of instructions for the baby's awesome development in the womb, all "the days fashioned for me," that is, all the days which God decreed for the fashioning of a fetus, they were written and set from the very beginning, before a single day's growth unfolded, even before the first cell divided into two, all 280 days of gestation, beginning with that moment of fertilization. So regardless of one's theology about predestination and free will, Psalm 139 does not teach that if a child is aborted, that moment of death was written in God's book. Rather, the book and its pages describe the development of the fetus, not his lifetime and ultimate death. Psalm 139:16 presents a couplet, a simple Hebrew parallelism. The two sentences of Psalm 139:16 both speak of the same topic, with each further explaining the other. Thus "the days fashioned for me" were not the days of my childhood, or my marriage, nor do they describe the child's death certificate, for these were the days when only God could see "my substance, being yet unformed." For He knows what each a human being is like, in the most extraordinary detail, at the moment of conception.

    Science, Morality and Philosophy: [God gave to mankind] "…the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness…" ‑Romans 2:15
    God put a conscience within man such that even an atheistic scientist like Richard Dawkins who denies this, will not remain neutral but instinctively object if someone else violates God's commands and tries to steal from him, or attempt to take his wife, or kill someone he cares about, so that his behaving contrary to his denial strongly affirms this biblical truth. Some atheists would prefer that society develop ethical notions scientifically. However the laws of the physical sciences do not use the moral concepts of right and wrong. The laws of logic, justice and reason are not even physical. They have no mass, no temperature, no polarity, etc. So there is a non-physical reality, and that is the domain of justice and reason. Humanist clichés masquerade as science but are easily rebutted.

    - There is no truth! Rebuttal: Is that true?
    - There are no absolutes! Rebuttal: Absolutely?
    - Only the physical realm is real! Rebuttal: That claim itself is not physical.
    - Only your five senses provide real knowledge. Rebuttal: Says which of the five?

    Albert Einstein, in his book Out of My Later Years, wrote that, "science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be," necessarily excluding from its domain "value judgments of all kinds." Thus science could not even prove that the Holocaust or slavery were wrong.

    Using a philosophical argument called Euthyphro's Dilemma, skeptics from Socrates till today claim that goodness does not flow from God. As atheist Bertrand Russell wrote, "If the only basis for morality is God's decrees, it follows that they might just as well have been the opposite of what they are…" Thus even the devil could be judged righteous if he gets to define what it means to be good. Basing its reasoning upon the Trinity, the Christian Answer to Euthyphro's Dilemma (as linked to also at Creation.com) fully rebuts the atheist argument that morality must be arbitrary. Scripture describes "the Lord God [as] abounding in goodness and truth" (Ex. 34:6) with "righteousness and justice [as] the foundation of Your throne" (Ps. 89:14), which means might does not make right, so that just because the abortionist is stronger than the fetus does not mean that he is right to tear apart that delicate child. Unlike the arbitrary and capricious Zeus of the Greeks, the triune God of Scripture acts deliberately and justifiably "according to the counsel of His will" (Eph. 1:11) and so He does not affirm prejudice but rather, "God shows personal favoritism to no man" (Lk. 20:21) as also God the Son does "not show personal favoritism, but teach[es] the way of God in truth" (Gal. 2:6). He declared, "you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32) and He teaches of "the Spirit of truth," and says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life" (Jn. 14:6). Therefore those who are killed unjustly, in heaven, describe Him as the one who will "judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth” (Rev. 6:10).

    Vigilante Behavior Condemned: "...all who take the sword will perish by the sword." -Jesus Mat. 26:52
    However the Scriptures also state, "He who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword," which command is described as "the faith of the saints" (Rev. 13:10). Lethal force in a park to save a child is just. Why is it wrong against an abortionist? American RTL produced a worksheet that puts into perspective the biblical principle regarding the right of self defense (which includes defense of your neighbor) with the restrictions of immanency and escalation of force that God placed on that authority. By those restrictions this ARTL Abortion Vigilante Worksheet teaches that everyone should condemn the vigilante killing of abortionists. Dr. Ronda Chervin wrote, "Dear American RTL, I just read your Abortion Vigilante Worksheet. I am a pro-life professor of ethics. I plan to use this in class. It is the best thing on this subject I have ever read. I just want to thank you profusely for devising it." See the worksheet for lessons from Genesis from before God delegated governmental authority to punish murderers, and from Exodus differentiating between justifiable self defense and defensive actions that themselves become criminal, and from First Samuel and David's response to those trying to kill him, and from Matthew and Romans regarding the general principle of submission to governing leaders. This worksheet is written also with the knowledge that many heroes of the faith disobeyed the governing authorities and now appear in the Hall of Faith in the book of Hebrews!

    See also Genesis 9:6-7; Job 10:8-12; 31:15; Psalm 22:9-10; 71:6; 119:73; 127:3-5; Proverbs 6:17; Isaiah 44:2; 49:1; Luke 1:42 and 17:1-3.

    Published with the permission of....
    American Right To Life
    If this were any other poster on any other topic you would have responded to this post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    It's called legalism.

    People having 'a conscience' doesn't help, because people have corrupt consciences, which is why God gave His loving Law for guidance, for those who wish to revert to being as God intended ie "repent" which was the life-giving message of Jesus.

    PROV 12:15 The way of a fool [is] right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel [is] wise.

    PROV 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

    Embracing and promoting the Law of God attracts the blessing, while disdaining and shunning the Law of God attracts the curse. I doubt you would consider abortion is a blessing. If you want it stopped, then embrace and promote God's Law instead of mainly disdaining it as 'legalism' except for any rare instance where you are 'partial' to God's Laws.

    Why should those considering abortion heed lawless hypocrites who pick and choose what they are partial to?

    Mal 2:9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

    Breaking Sabbath is unloving by rejecting God's loving gift of healthy rest for welfare of self and others (love others as self) and is therefore a capital offence. One person committing an unloving capital offence can hardly point the finger at another person committing a different unloving capital offence
    JN 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

    Children are 'fruit' of the womb. Fruit comes from the flower. In the warning below, the flower goes to dust rather than be fulfilled as fruit
    IS 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, [so] their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.


    Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many works of power?
    Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; "depart from Me, those working lawlessness!"

    Psa 50:16 But to the wicked, God says, What is it to you to proclaim My statutes, and to take up My covenant on your mouth?
    Psa 50:17 Yea, you hate instruction and toss My Words behind you.

  7. #22
    Rookie John Ladder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    37
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    90
    Sorry, Glenda, but your post makes no sense.

    What biblical support is there to justify elective abortion?

  8. #23
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    God's earth
    Posts
    89
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    128
    Quote Originally Posted by John Ladder View Post
    Sorry, Glenda, but your post makes no sense.

    What biblical support is there to justify elective abortion?
    Hi John, why do anti-God's-Law Christians want support from Torah/OT/God's Law to condemn anything when anti-God's-Law Christians reject God's Laws themselves????

    I'm sorry that you failed to understand the scriptural support of my claim that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

    Many anti-God's-Law 'Christians' who commit unloving scriptural capital offences themselves according to God, point the finger at others who commit different scriptural capital offences according to God, and use God's Law to accuse others yet fail to use the same standard on themselves! How ludicrous and disgusting is that?

    If anti-God's-Law 'Christians' wish to stop others from aborting on the grounds that 'it's against God's Law' after those same Christians assure the general public that God's Law has been done away with and should be disdained as 'legalism' (except for any Laws those anti-God's-Law Christians are rather partial to evidently!!!!) , those anti-God's-Law Christians should demonstrate that they have repented and stopped committing scriptural capital offences themselves before promoting others to also repent and stop committing unloving scriptural lawlessness. Otherwise it's the pot calling the kettle black situation ... extremely hypocritical and can't expect to be taken seriously ... truly!

    So the OP can either be viewed as 'legalism' according to standards set by lawless Christianity, or it can be viewed as hypocrisy ... take your pick.

    Lawlessness leads to issues like abortion according to scripture so while Christianity rejects God's law, abortion will continue. If you TRULY wish to stop abortion, then embrace God's Law instead of disdaining it. Lawless Christianity has sown the wind and is reaping the whirlwind of God's wrath, yet it points the finger instead of repenting!

    JER 23:19 Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.
    HOS 8:7 For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk: the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up.

    H7921 denotes such things as abortion (whether naturally or induced) and is part of the curse of rejecting God's Law. The blessing assures us that abortion will not exist if God's Law is embraced
    Exo 23:25 And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.
    Exo 23:26 There shall nothing cast their young (H7921), nor be barren, in thy land: the number of thy days I will fulfil.

    If Christians truly seriously wish to stop abortion, then Christianity needs to embrace God's Laws instead of disdaining them as 'legalism', otherwise anti-God's-Law Christians should stop griping about others disobeying God in a way Christianity doesn't like while Christianity itself disobeys God in a way that God doesn't like and God condemns as capital offences.

    Anti-God's-Law results in issues like abortion.

    You can't have it both ways. Attract the curse, including abortion, by deciding to continue to be anti-God's-Law and stop griping about consequences of your choices, or repent and embrace God's Law and enjoy the blessing of no more issues like abortion ... but that means you'd have to start keeping Sabbath which is a delightful gift from a loving God Who cares about our welfare ... but of course there is no rest for the wicked ... and they like it that way!

  9. #24
    ☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) ☜☜☜☜☞☞☞☞ A Calvinist! ☜☜☜☜☜ Ask Mr. Religion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Chandler, Arizona USA
    Posts
    5,698
    Thanks
    2,792
    Thanked 2,557 Times in 1,572 Posts

    Blog Entries
    142
    Mentioned
    73 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)



    Rep Power
    2084628
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    The value of life is fairly universal. In our culture, we prize it sufficiently (and wonder at the state of those who do not sufficiently value it) to institute laws prohibiting a person from taking their own.

    If this mother can end the life within her without that act causing her additional suffering then some other and greater injury has preceded it or she is lacking in something essential to her humanity that impairs her ability to make the decision from an informed perspective.

    Excellent post, Knight.
    Indeed!

    AMR
    WARNING: Embedded link content that may be in my post above or the many embedded links my sig below are not for the faint of heart.



    Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
    AMR's Randomata Blog
    Learn Reformed Doctrine
    I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
    Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
    Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
    The best TOL Social Group: here.
    If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
    Why?



  10. #25
    Newbie
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    3
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Soloman...wiser than me? wiser than you? Soloman said, The dead are better off than the living. Better off yet are those who have not been born.
    So, you have to wonder, what would Soloman say about the abortion of the unborn.
    Without the law we would not know what sin is. The greater part of the law we have swept under the rug as if it's useless. In his day, Soloman was the law.
    no one can claim the wisdom of Soloman. he understood that he ruled in an imperfect world and he handled real world crisis. and he understood that those who have not yet born born are the best off of all.
    so here's a question for my christian brothers: what makes you think and why do you act as if these babies are lost? not a sparrow falls to the ground without his knowledge. nothing is lost. He is a God of justice. don't you think that He who raises us from the dead will include these discarded babies? and then what? send their mothers to hell?

  11. #26
    Newbie
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    3
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    I haven't had time to read your post, but i think i like it. a friend set me up on this blog and i just blogged. i have a weird name, i assume my friend gave it to me. and i was called a 'one hit wonder'. my friend believes i need to be blogging. i will need her help to even get back to this site. i will hit reply and i don't even know if you will know who i am. later...

  12. #27
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    26,569
    Thanks
    208
    Thanked 1,272 Times in 669 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    62 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    969440
    Quote Originally Posted by Walk Ye In It View Post
    I haven't had time to read your post, but i think i like it. a friend set me up on this blog and i just blogged. i have a weird name, i assume my friend gave it to me. and i was called a 'one hit wonder'. my friend believes i need to be blogging. i will need her help to even get back to this site. i will hit reply and i don't even know if you will know who i am. later...
    Thanks.
    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

    Download the new TOL app for iPhone, iPad, and Android...


  13. #28
    Rookie John Ladder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    37
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    90
    Because God has the power to raise up sons of Abraham from mere stones, let us therefore allow the murders to continue unchallenged. Illogical, outrageous, and sad.

    Christian, say you. Who, then, is your Lord?
    Luke 3:8-9 -- "Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
    Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. -- Proverbs 1:7

    The fool thinks himself to be wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool -- Shakespeare, Measure for Measure

    My threads: Convincing proof: Did Jesus somehow establish the church of Rome? | Authentic Scripture Demands Sola Scriptura | Early Church Fathers on Sola Scriptura | The pre-existence of Christ | Naturalism is a Failed Research Program

  14. #29
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    431
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0

    Go

    Excellent article Knight! Regarding Vigilante Behavior Condemned and George Tiller (the baby killer):

    Ann Coulter said it best:

    "I don't really like to think of it as a murder. It was terminating Tiller in the 203rd trimester."

    http://lifewithoutfaith.com/wp-conte...churchsign.jpg
    ________
    Mazda m5 transmission
    Last edited by aSeattleConserv; February 16th, 2011 at 05:49 PM.

  15. #30
    LIFETIME MEMBER Desert Reign's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,367
    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 182 Times in 115 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    451546
    Spot on, Knight.

    For those who don't like the idea of using the Bible in this kind of debate (The Bible says it, I believe it, you know the rest) I simply argue that abortion is generally wrong on the grounds of an abuse of power. We owe a duty of protection to all those who are in our way who are weaker, the disabled, animals, children, babies, the poor, etc. If we didn't have such a duty, why is it that a pregnant woman is counselled not to take any drugs? No one would dispute that drugs are a serious risk to the unborn child and that the mother is culpable if she takes them so why would they argue that it is right to actually kill the thing?

    Killing unborn babies generally is an evil and will be punished along with all oppression and abuse.
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us