Did God become flesh?

john w said:

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9 KJV

This is Paul's point-"the Lord Jesus"= You must acknowlege Him as Lord=Deity=God. Eventually, all will do this(including Satan and "his gang" and the unsaved), all will acknowlegde that He is God, as it is written:

"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:10-11 KJV

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Indeed, Paul was very knowledgeable of all scripture (unlike so many here on TOL) and was actually using the OT to confirm the deity of Christ.
Paul also refers to this scripture in Romans 14:11 KJV
So Paul makes it clear that the judgment seat of Christ is the judgment seat of God.

tetelestai said:

(Phil 2:8) And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself...

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Yep, exactly like you and I;

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

And Jesus DID humble himself, and made himself a "servant";

Luke 22:27 "For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.

Jesus submitted to his God; (nevertheless let THY will be done, and not mine), and very obediently did NOT exercise ALL the power, and authority that Jehovah/YHVH his God had given Jesus;

Matt 26:53-54 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?


It is THIS behavior that Paul is describing in Phil 2

Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Dartman said:

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

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LOl...you just refuted yourself with that verse.

You still haven't addressed Phil 2:6

Dartman said:

....RING A BELL??



[Jesus did NOT know "the day or the hour" of his return.
".

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As you did with me, you post verses in isolation, ignoring the subject, context.

Matthew 24 KJV
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Rosh Hoshanah

The Saviour was employing a common Jewish figure of speech, that would have been easily recognized by his audience, referring to a specific Jewish Festival, one of "the feasts."


Research it...First day of month, "new moon.." Changes each year....2 witnesses...Did not know what day it would be, for that particular year...


All Jewish feasts, always fall on the full moon of the month, save one. "Head of the Year" is the only feast, occurring on the first of the month, during the month of "Tishri."




Before the "expert" scientists discovered, and "got" the cycles of the planets and the solar system, the Jewish peopled knew that there was a two-day window for the sighting of the new moon.

Thus, the new month could not officially begin, until two witnesses reported to the High Priest, that they had seen the "sliver of the new moon." Once the first two sightings were confirmed, and only then, could the Levitical priests sound the shofar, to declare the start of Rosh HaShanah.


He certainly did not what was coming, per Matthew 24:25 KJV, in the future, with specifics.

john w said:

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9 KJV

This is Paul's point-"the Lord Jesus"= You must acknowlege Him as Lord=Deity=God.

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Lord does NOT = God.

Do you think the title "Lord of lords" means "God of Gods"??????

Lord is ANY one who has authority over others. These texts use the same Greek word "kurios";
Acts 16:16-19 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,




Eph 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;




Eph 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.




Col 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:




Col 4:1 Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.




1 Peter 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Johnw said:

Survey Isaiah 45 KJV

1 Thus saith the Lord to his anointed,

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You are making a very novice mistake.
The OT records MANY THOUSANDS of "YHVH", God's personal name.
Most translators conform to a man-made convention of REPLACING God's personal name, YHVH, (no matter HOW you pronounce it; Jehovah, Yahweh, Yehovah, etc.), with "LORD".

The ASV sticks to the Hebrew in this case, and thus;
Isa 45:1 Thus saith Jehovah to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him, and I will loose the loins of kings; to open the doors before him, and the gates shall not be shut:


Jesus is NEVER Jehovah/YHVH God. In fact, Jehovah/YHVH God states emphatically that Jesus is Jehovah's SERVANT;


Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.

(Phil 2:6) Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

Dartman?

john w said:

As you did with me, you post verses in isolation, ignoring the subject, context.
Matthew 24 KJV
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Rosh Hoshanah

The Saviour was employing a common Jewish figure of speech, that would have been easily recognized by his audience, referring to a specific Jewish Festival, one of "the feasts."


Research it...First day of month, "new moon.." Changes each year....2 witnesses...Did not know what day it would be, for that particular year...


He certainly did not what was coming, per Matthew 24:25 KJV, in the future, with specifics.

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Wow ..... all of your wresting, just to deny what Jesus said.

Just in case you DIDN'T know ...... words have meaning. We are RESPONSIBLE to tell the truth. Jesus told the truth. He SAID ONLY the Father knows ...... that's exactly what he meant.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

tetelestai said:

(Phil 2:6) Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

Dartman?

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Phil 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, ASV




Phil 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, NASB




Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


The entire text in Phil 2:5-11 is explaining the attitude/mind Jesus had DURING HIS MINISTRY. It is NOT talking about anything PRIOR to Christ's ministry.
The utterly PAGAN notion of "incarnation" is Scripturally impossible, and is LITERALLY/REALY impossible ..... as we can see in God's Creation. This notion defies ALL of the evidence right before our faces, whether in the Bible, or in God's Creation!

The ONLY reason the lie of "incarnation" isn't laughed out of existence is, it has been repeated for 18 centuries, so to some it SEEMS normal.

It's fiction.

Dartman said:

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

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That's a reference to the Feast of Tabernacles.

No one ever knew the day or hour when the Feast of Tabernacles would begin because it was on a new moon (the only feast that began on a new moon).

The Sanhedrin used to send out two witnesses to look for the new moon. Sometimes they would see it in a few hours, sometimes it could be a couple days until they saw it, but the feast could not begin until the two witnesses saw it. No one ever knew the day or hour when it would begin. Even to this day, NASA can tell when there is a new moon, but cannot tell when the new moon can be seen:

"The time when the moon can be seen for the first time depends on lots of factors, such as atmospheric clarity, weather and latitude, these can't be predicted from day to day."

Dartman said:

The ONLY reason the lie of "incarnation" isn't laughed out of existence is, it has been repeated for 18 centuries, so to some it SEEMS normal.

It's fiction.

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Does that mean you do not believe in the virgin birth?

tetelestai said:

Dartman said:

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

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LOl...you just refuted yourself with that verse.

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Nope. You merely THINK I refuted myself because you misunderstand the verse.

EXACTLY like "the children", (ALL of God's offspring), are "partakers of flesh and blood"....
This means WE "took part" EXACTLY like Jesus did ..... (with the exception of the miracle of conception, which doesn't alter Mary's otherwise normal pregnancy, and carrying Jesus up to his birth.)

tetelestai said:

You still haven't addressed Phil 2:6

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Of course I did. But, if you still have questions, I will be happy to answer them.

Dartman said:

But, if you still have questions, I will be happy to answer them.

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Do you believe the virgin birth?

tetelestai said:

Does that mean you do not believe in the virgin birth?

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LOL ..... I was posting this before I saw your question;

(with the exception of the miracle of conception, which doesn't alter Mary's otherwise normal pregnancy, and carrying Jesus up to his birth.)

Dartman said:

(with the exception of the miracle of conception, which doesn't alter Mary's otherwise normal pregnancy, and carrying Jesus up to his birth.)

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I'll take that as a "no"?

tetelestai said:

That's a reference to the Feast of Tabernacles.

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No, it's not.

Mark 13:30-37 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

It's talking about Christ's return to this planet. ONLY the Father knows that day, and hour.

tetelestai said:

I'll take that as a "no"?

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Why??? Did you completely miss ... "the miracle of conception"????

tetelestai said:

(Phil 2:8) And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself...

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Why do you post a verse as if it some how proves your point? :think:

Your refering to the Kenotic Doctrine that you hear in your Church... but have no understanding what so ever to it's meaning!!!

So Jesus humbled/Emptied Himself?

Now to the second phrase in Philippians 2 that causes you a difficulty. It is the one that says Jesus Christ "did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself (v. 6-7). It is unfortunate that the Old King James version of the Bible translated this verse completely wrong. It reads that Jesus "thought it not robbery to be equal with God" and gives the impression that as the preexistent God, Jesus did not think there was anything wrong in being considered equal with God.
It ought to be clear by now that this is the exact opposite of what is meant. The whole context of the passage is about being humble, putting God's will and glory first, and serving others’ interest above one's own interest. Although he was in "the form of God" Jesus did not reckon his God-given status as something to be exploited.

This meaning contrast well with the conduct of Adam who unfortunately did consider equality with God anything to be grasped at. Adam wanted to be like God as Genesis 3:5 teaches. Adam tried to grasp at equality with God. But Jesus would not usurp God's authority for selfish advantage. He said, "I came to serve" (Matt. 20:28), not to snatch! At his arrest in the garden, he said, "Do you not think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than 12 legions of angels?" (Matthew 26:53). As the Messiah, God's appointed King, he had every right to call for divine protection. He "emptied himself" of all such Messianic privileges.

Therefore, it can be categorically stated that Philippians 2: 5-11 has nothing to do with Jesus Christ being God in a preexistence state. The importance is really very simple and very practical: how are Christians to conduct themselves in this world? Not by imitating the man Adam who forfeited everything by a grab for power and glory, but by imitating Jesus the Messiah (v.5) who through humility and obedience to God gained it all and more. After all, if Jesus was already God, then verses 9 to 11 are nonsensical. There is no "Therefore also God highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth." If he was already God, he had this before his birth! No. It is clear that God has given him a new position, a new name (authority), and a new rank that he did not previously possess.

The Greek is very clear here: dio kai means (as in Luke 1:35) "for this reason precisely." Why has God exalted Jesus to His right hand? "Therefore, God has highly exalted him and given him the name above every other name because he is back where he was before as God"? Not at all! He is given the status as a reward for the precise reason that he humbled himself and died. His exalted status is a reward. If we follow the last Adam's pattern, we too will be exalted by God when Christ returns. It is evident, then, that "this hymn does not contained what numerous interpreters seek and find in it: an independent statement about preexistence or even a Christology preexistence… No preexistence of Christ before the world with an independent significance can be recognized even in Philippians 2.


This is the creed of ALL Orthodox Christian Beliefs! All of them!

DEFINITION OF THE COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON (451 AD)

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.


So pay close attention.... The Kenotic Doctrine claims that Jesus emptied himself of his deity. Well, you can simply read in the Chalcedon Creed that it defines Jesus’ nature as fully God and fully man at all times, without division, without separation. You cannot say that you believe in the Trinity and use this excuse. If you subscribe to the Kenotic Doctrine, then you have already rejected the Trinity. You cannot be both.

You follow the teachings of men... and this is why you fail with a simple post of scripture, one with no debate/explanation on it's actual meaning!

Study harder...
:sherlock:oly:
Paul

Dartman said:

Why??? Did you completely miss ... "the miracle of conception"????

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I couldn't tell if you were saying yes or no.

So, now that you say you believe Mary was impregnated by the miracle of conception, why would that have been necessary if Jesus was a man like everyone else?

Joseph was a Jew from the tribe of Judah, why didn't God just let Joseph impregnate Mary?

Pierac said:

Why do you post a verse as if it some how proves your point?

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Um....because it does.

(Phil 2:6) Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

Putting "being in very nature God" aside (which totally refutes your claim by the way), how could Jesus be equal with God if just a man?

(John 18:36) Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

If Jesus was just a man, who were these servants He was talking about?

And, where did those servants live?