Oh my.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Oh my.
Dear P.P.S. The eklektos ἐκλεκτός are gathered, or picked out (chosen) by the Father "before the foundation of the world". The Source of this election is the Father's love and grace, NOT human will, but wholly from Him, thru Him & for Him. The eklektos are the first-fruits of the harvest, the malista of Abba.
There is no such animal as "non elect". Those who are not the eklektos are lost sheep who the Master of Reconciliation specializes in reaching in their apollumi condition.
He is the reconciliation for our sins, and NOT for our sins ONLY, but for the sins of the whole world
Yes, my friend, Jesus Christ is the hilasmos of the holos!
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
What’s the name of your cult?
Aimiel
Well-known member
Every post. :thumb:
way 2 go
Well-known member
artie does not quote the bible , he is arguing this from his feelings , which is not the topic.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not ?
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Crack kills.
way 2 go
Well-known member
what would you suggest we call ECT ?
eternal conscious punishment
eternal conscious seperation
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
separation works for me, although i'm sure it will be unsatisfactory to those who choose to oppose God
way 2 go
Well-known member
would you add to this , why redemption is not available after death ?
thank you.
way 2 go
Well-known member
separation seems to be the point of all scripture .
some will choose redemption and no longer be separated from God in this life and the next
and
some like their separation from God and will forever be separated from God
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
way 2 go
Well-known member
I don't often think of "sin" as a "something missing" but that is what makes a person lost
would you agree that pharaoh's hardening of his heart was , if i get what you are saying , more missing of his heart ,
an ability to hear God ?
Exo 8:13 And the LORD did according to the word of Moses. The frogs died out in the houses, the courtyards, and the fields.
Exo 8:14 And they gathered them together in heaps, and the land stank.
Exo 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart and would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
It needs to be a term of negation, IMHO; and eternal and aeviternal are not the same thing, so I’d prefer everlasting to the fallacious term eternal. This might prompt discussions on a delineation between the two terms, which would be helpful.
This would be a great thread topic, if it didn’t turn into a septic tank.
I’ll give it some thought rather than hastily responding. Great question.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
This would require quite a lengthy delineation of Anthropology Proper (the constitution of man and the propagation of souls, etc.).
The hypostasis is the “person”, but is more literally “the underlying substanding objective reality of individual existence”. It’s very often referred to as substance, as it is for faith in Hebrews (Now faith is the substance - hypostasis - of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen).
This is the core ontology of man as “who”ness (individuality), and it underlies the ousia (the essence as wealth of beingness) as man’s “what”ness (humanity). The human hypostasis is man as a living soul; and the fact that the “who”ness is foundational for the “what”ness means Darwinian Theory is absolutely false and impossible.
The ousia (essence) of a being is its special (spee-cee-ahl, as in species) designation, and it cannot change for it is determined by that which underlies it. We are not individuals OF the human race, we are a human race because we are each individuals.
Man must be hypostatically joined to Christ while at least one aspect of life is present (either physical or spiritual), and since all are conceived in spiritual death with attendant sin (the state of being) then man is not truly a living soul (like Adam) until resurrected unto spiritual life.
Once someone is both spiritually AND physically dead, there is no means of restoring the constant communion that is spiritual life (zoe). So spiritual resurrection must occur during man’s physical life. Man is not a “real” hypostasis until he becomes a living soul as was Adam (before the Edenic lapse).
It’s a matter of lexical meaning for all the applicable words, demonstrating a functionality of divine order that was abrogated and must be restored in a specific manner. Redemption must happen exactly how God has prescribed, and it has to occur while there is physical life for spiritual life to be restored.
And all of this is why the redeemded will not be hurt of the second death. It’s also why we need not fear him who can kill the body, but him who can kill both body and soul in hell.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Sin is hamartia. Hamartia is an agglutinative of a- (no/not) and meros (share/part/place). Sin is the missing share/part/place that is the void in man as a “something” that is absent.
Hamartia is a noun, and is an archer term. It refers not to merely “missing the mark”, as so many presume and also assume it’s a verb. Hamartia refers to the archer’s state of being. It means that with hamartia, it doesn’t matter if the archer is shooting or at rest or doing anything else in life. He doesn’t have the ability to hit the mark. It means the archer can’t accomplish the act of shooting the target, whether he picks up a bow or not. It’s his condition as an archer. His state of being. Any economy of action will reflect this, as the archer will NEVER be able to hit any target. Not one. Ever.
So hamartia is a privation or negation. It’s a “something” in the same sense that a hole or a void is a something. It’s a “somethinglessness”, and it’s man’s innate state of being attendant to spiritual death into which all men are conceived and born. It’s a condition in which man cannot accomplish the righteousness of God, even if all resulting actions parallel the standard of God for inner character and outer conduct.
All allegedly good and benevolent works of unredeemed man come from this source as state of being. So every seeming good work of man is sin if not redeemed. Feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked... ALL are sin if not of faith. That which is not of faith is sin.
And Believers are subject to this as well. If a work is done in faith it’s not sin. Conversely, any work that is NOT of faith IS sin. All of them. That’s because the source OF the action is the issue, not merely the economy of action.
As for Pharoah... This applies to him and his heart. Because he wasn’t under the Abrahamic faith covenant, he was unable to commune with God in spiritual death. So what you’ve said is basically accurate.
It was that which was missing in him that was the source of the disposition of his heart and his actions. It’s because of his state of being in spiritual death and sin.
Matt 28:10 “Rather, be afraid of the One who can
There NOW it says what you want/need it to say...
You probably missed it, but here is my response to rstrats to a similar challenge.
Not a challenge...
If you noticed I am attempting to help yours with the scripture...
Yes, it was a challenge.
Your assertion was that in order for us to establish our belief, we would have to change what the Bible says.
Which isn't true at all, because of what I said in my post that I quoted.
Instead of ignoring it, why don't you try addressing my argument.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
I never know who has which view, so (before I address Greek grammar and semantics) are you posting to support Annihilationism, Universalism, or “ECT” (still hate that term)?
Clefty is definitely not "ECT" (for lack of a better term).