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Thread: The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

  1. #91
    Over 500 post club Kevin's Avatar
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    HopeofGlory,

    If we read Romans 5 we can see how we are baptized into his death. You say it is by obeying in water baptism but this is not what Paul said.
    There is only one baptism, and Jesus's baptism includes water.

    John 3:5 states:

    5) Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless on is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

    That verse is clearly speaking about the requirements for being reborn, and it includes water, as well as the Holy Spirit. Anybody who teaches that water isn't necessary goes against this verse, and thus Jesus.

    That's why the Bible has examples like Phillip baptizing the Ethiopian. Look for yourself in Acts 8:35-36:

    35) Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him.
    36) Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"


    This isn't the baptism of John... no siree, this is the baptism of Jesus Christ mentioned here (verse 35). The fact that the eunuch asked "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" proves that Phillip instructed baptism with water, or why would the enuch mention water at all? Phillip was instructing the eunuch about baptism, which is what Jesus commanded in the great commission (Matt. 28:19-20), and it inlcudes water. This passage and the "unless you are born of water and Spirit" passage proves that water is involved.

    Another example of Jesus's baptism requiring water is in Acts 10:47-48:

    47) Can anyone forbid water that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
    48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.


    I couldn't say it any plainer. Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized (IN THE NAME OF THE LORD).

    Again, there is only one baptism, and it says in the above verse that people baptized in in the name of the Lord (baptized into Christ, buried with Him through baptism) inlcludes water (verse 47).
    Last edited by Kevin; September 13th, 2001 at 10:55 PM.
    Praise be to God!

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    Kevin,

    Please read my arguments from Hebrews 9 & reply.
    Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
    21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    In Christ,

    Ian

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    Kevin

    QUOTE]5) Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless on is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

    That verse is clearly speaking about the requirements for being reborn, and it includes water, as well as the Holy Spirit. Anybody who teaches that water isn't necessary goes against this verse, and thus Jesus.[/QUOTE]

    The verse does not say "reborn" of water but "born" of water. The parallelism (use of identical or equivalent syntactic constructions in corresponding clauses or phrases found through out the bible) of the corresponding verse interprets "born of water" for us.

    That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6 (KJV)

    So we see that "born of water" is equivalent to "born of the flesh". Also within verse 3:6 we see the contrast between the flesh and the Spirit and this contrast should be applied to it's corresponding verse in 3:5 which is a indentical syntatic construction.

    The baptism performed by Jesus is with the Spirit and is not related to water for John said....."I indeed baptize you with water but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost Matt. 3:11. Again we see the contrast between water and Spirit.... I baptism with water "but" (on the contrary) He shall baptism with the Holy Ghost.

    I agree there is only "one" baptism and it is ...For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body... 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)

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    Question

    Ian,

    What exactly is your point about Hebrews 9? I called my wife in here to see if she could see your point, and she doesn't know what you're trying to say, as I don't either.

    Thanks.
    Praise be to God!

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    Context... context...

    HopeofGlory,

    The verse does not say "reborn" of water but "born" of water. The parallelism (use of identical or equivalent syntactic constructions in corresponding clauses or phrases found through out the bible) of the corresponding verse interprets "born of water" for us.
    The reason I used the word "reborn" is because of the question that Jesus is answering. You aren't looking at this verse in it's proper context, so I will quote John 3:3-5 for you:

    3) Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

    4) Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

    5) Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
    Jesus was clearly talking about how one becomes "born again", not how one is "born" (verse 3). In verse 4, Nicodemus asked how one is born again. Jesus then answered Nicodemus how one becomes "born again" (reborn) in verse 5: water and Spirit.
    Last edited by Kevin; September 14th, 2001 at 09:17 PM.
    Praise be to God!

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    Kevin,
    Originally posted by Kevin
    Ian,

    What exactly is your point about Hebrews 9? I called my wife in here to see if she could see your point, and she doesn't know what you're trying to say, as I don't either.

    Thanks.
    My all red posting on page 6 explains (or tries to)

    Hebrews 9:10 refers to "baptisms" but for some strange reason is always translated "washings".
    Young's Literal Translation gives: only in victuals, and drinks, and different baptisms, and fleshly ordinances -- till the time of reformation imposed upon [them].

    Hebrews then goes on in chapter 9 to explain the "different baptisms" & their significance. Particularly the red heifer ritual (Numbers 19) & the covenant ritual (Ex. 24). If you look in Numbers 19:18 in the Greek you will see that that baptism is "dip & sprinkle" the dip word being bapsei.
    Num 19:18 And a clean person shall take hyssop, and dip [it] in the water, and sprinkle [it] upon the tent, and upon all the vessels, and upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched a bone, or one slain, or one dead, or a grave.

    (Use the http://www.blueletterbible.org )

    THe bottom line is that Hebrews understands "baptism" in the Old Covenant Scriptures as a "dip & sprinkle" procedure. Christian baptism uses water to symbolically apply the blood of Christ.
    Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
    14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    Hbr 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
    20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
    21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God;
    22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

    By this I understand that baptism by sprinkling, signifying the application of the cleansing blood, is a valid mode of baptism, and may be the commanded method.

    It does not invalidate the "death/burial/resurrection" significance, for it identifies the sinner with the sacrifice.

    Note also:
    Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
    28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    Also note that the Jewish leaders expected baptism as a Messianic ritual:
    John 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

    I hope that makes it clear.
    Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
    21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    In Christ,

    Ian

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    I just want to say that "Kevin" hit the target right in middle of the bullseye! His use of the scriptures is true to the mark, about the one baptism being WATER baptism.

    The example of Acts 8 serves to prove this, when Philip the evangelist preached Christ to the Ethiopian eunuch, and had concluded his message, the eunuch asked, "See, here is WATER, what hinders me from being baptized." It is clear that the scriptures connect preaching Christ (thus, His gospel message) with WATER baptism. The ex. in Acts 10, of the house of Cornelius also shows this. The baptism of the Holy Spirit came upon them AT THE TIME OF GOD'S CHOOSING, completely independent of their own will. Yet, after this bap. of the Holy Spirit, at the conclusion of Peter's message, he asked who could forbid the "WATER" for those their to be baptized who had heard and believed his message. And then it says that Peter "ORDERED" [KJV, "COMMANDED"] them to be baptized. Thus, HOLY SPIRIT baptism is a ONE-WAY affair. It is "poured out" on certain ones at the time, place, and circumstance OF GOD's CHOOSING; whereas WATER baptism is a command that people must VOLUNTARILY obey. This is the baptism that people of "all nations" must obey if they wish to be a disciple of Christ. This is EXACTLY what Matt. 28:19-20, Acts 2:38, and Acts 8 (Philip and the eunuch) are teaching.

    One of the very reasons the example of Philip and the eunuch was recorded in the scriptures, so people of all generations may learn from it, was to show that WATER baptism is the baptism administered to people who believe and obey the gospel of Christ.

    Changing the subject... I just want to say, please, that my posts will probably rather few and somewhat far between, for a while anyway, because of the many, many other things that are demanding my attention presently. One of which is, a big load of Bible correspondence courses that just arrived at church from Africa, and I am one of those who grade them. They are VERY time-consuming.

    So, if I don't post for a while, it DOESN"T mean that someone has said something that I am unable to "answer," it just means that I am smothered under a lot of other things that I MUST attend to, as well.

    I thank the moderators so very much, and all those who put this theology discussion forum together and provided it on the internet - THANK YOU ALL SO VERY, VERY MUCH.

    And one last thing, in all our differences in doctrinal matters, let us not forget that we all need to speak with ONE VOICE about the risen Savior - the LORD JESUS CHRIST, because the religion of Islam seems to be rapidly taking over not only the world, but is spreading rapidly throughout this country. And their "god" and religion does NOT tolerate, peacefully anyway, Christianity being diligently preached and practiced (esp. trying to convert members of their religion to Christ), as a short mental "scan" of this picture in Islamic nations will bear out. We MUST all pray and pray that the one and only True God, "Jehovah," will keep the door of opportunity continually open for those who name the Name of Christ, and pray that the pathway will continually be unobstructed that gives free course for Christ and His gospel message to continue in, in this country. But we must ALL be diligent in taking advantage of these opportunities that God gives us, lest they be taken away from us. We must speak forth boldly, yet diplomatically, the name of JESUS CHRIST whenever the opportunity presents itself. May God give us the courage and spirit to do so.
    God bless...

    s-o-C

  8. #98
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    Re: The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!

    Originally posted by Freak
    As expected we have heretics spreading their destructive doctrines on this forum, namely O2bewise. Mr. O2bewise said the following on September 6th: "Salvation can only come by baptism".

    This pawn of Satan embraces and promotes a doctrine that will lead many to eternal hell. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. Baptism is not a requirement!

    One attains eternal life (Salvation) thru simple belief in the person of Jesus. We see this in the words of Jesus when He said: "Everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life" (John 3:15).

    Another time when addressing the people of His day, Jesus was asked: "What must we do to do the works God requires?", Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent" (John 6:28-29).

    Note no mention of baptism.

    Jesus made it clear O2bewise: I AM THE GATE; WHOEVER ENTERS THROUGH ME WILL BE SAVED (John 10:9).

    Again no mentione of baptism, apparently to o2bewise Jesus must have misspoken here.

    I would urge my fellow believers in the Lord Jesus to come against O2bewise's devilish doctrines. This man degrades our Lord when He speaks against Him by stating Baptism is required to be saved. This is in direct opposition to what our Lord said. Jesus said just come unto Him and you will be saved.

    Some unbelievers once asked the disciples: "What must I do to be saved?"

    They replied: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31).

    Note again no mention of baptism. Just belief in the Lord Jesus.

    I think for me and my household we will listen to Jesus then o2bewise and his wicked ways.

    I am sure that o2bewise can show where baptism is essential for salvation from the scriptures, but can freak show where "faith only" plus nothing and minus nothing saves?

    JustAChristian

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    Study On Baptism

    Originally posted by Freak
    Since you think baptism is part of the Gospel I stand by all my statements.

    Have you read 1 Cor. 15 where paul clealry explained what the Gospel is? Hint: It has nothing to do with baptism.
    Freak,

    If I may, allow me an opportunity to post a statement on the subject of baptism. I believe that this is one of the most misunderstood subjects in the New Testament. It is not that the subject can not be understood, but I believe the Prince of this world, Satan, has blinded the minds of people to simple New Testament conclusions of which baptism is greatly mentioned. Until people accept that Jesus has required a series of acts on our part which can easily be found within the pages of the gospel, after the apostles went forth to preach, we will never understand the beginning of the gospel or the progress of the gospel. To this extent, I am posting an entry on the subject of Baptism.

    STUDY ON BAPTISM (Statements made to a student).

    It is arresting that you should say, and I quote, "The ceremony of baptism in itself does not save us..." when Peter, the Apostle said, and I quote, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Pet 3:21).

    You said that in baptism we "pledge to God our lives." The problem with that statement is that the bible does not say that. It says that baptism is the "answer of a good conscience before God". That is to say that in baptism, a person is appealing to God for a cleansed conscience and the answer comes from heaven cleansing the person of past sins. This is stated in Hebrews 9:14 "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"

    WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT BAPTISM
    Baptism is the point at which a person is united with Christ into His death and resurrection into "newness of life" (Rom 6:3)
    There is only ONE recognized baptism. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism," (Eph 4:5)

    There is not a spiritual baptism and a water baptism. The baptism recognized is the one instituted by Christ himself, which He said was in order to "fulfill ALL righteousness" (Mt 3:15). Even though Jesus was not baptized for the remission of sins, His baptism is the pattern for the baptism that is now recognized by God; one in which God becomes well-pleased in the one being baptized(Mt 3:17), one in which the Holy Spirit is received(Mt 3:16), one in which in its very form depicts the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus(Mt 3:16: "come UP straight way out of the WATER)--our baptism is validated by the events surrounding Christ's baptism.
    Baptism is the point at which a person is IN CHRIST. We are joined to the Lord at this time. "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have PUT ON Christ." (Gal 3:27)

    The apostle Peter ordered for converts in Cornelius' household to be baptized. "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." (Acts 10:47-48)
    The apostle Paul commended the believers at Rome for their baptism "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that FORM of doctrine which was delivered you."(Rom 6:17)

    At Pentecost, in the midst of Peter's sermon, the adherents to his message were pricked in their hearts and asked Peter, "What shall we do?"--moved to repentance. "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

    Baptism is not a "good work", meaning that in baptism I am trying to earn my salvation. Baptism is the response of faith. Faith ALWAYS obeys--the "obedience OF FAITH" (Rom 16:26). In Mt 28:18ff, Jesus called for the baptism of all believers, and every TRUE believer seeks to do what pleases Jesus. Baptism is the working of faith in submissive response to the command of Jesus.

    Some may say, if baptism saves us, then what about the theif on the cross? This is a special acception. Believe me, if that thief could have come down from that cross to be baptized, he would have done so! Doctrines that shape our consideration of baptism can not be shaped around this single incident. If this was a pattern for sound theology than we might as well start teaching that every person who lies will die instantly, as Ananias and Sapphira did.

    When explaining good works, you said "but those who are saved but do no good works, still get in but have no special credit."
    There is not a single passage of scripture to butress this ascertion. In fact the bible says, concerning those who are interested in eternal life, "To them who BY PATIENT CONTINUANCE IN WELL DOING seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:"(Rom 2:7), and again, "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. {9} And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, IF WE FAINT NOT." (Gal 6:8-9), and again, "And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they BE NOT UNFRUITFUL." (Titus 3:14), and again, "Every branch in me that BEARETH NOT FRUIT He(God, the Father) taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." (John 15:2) People that "do no good works" as you put it, do not have a shred of evidence of being connected to Christ and the eternal purpose of God, for Eph 2:10 says "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." "Good works" in this sense are not works that earn salvation, but actions that are EVIDENCE of the working of salvation in a believer's life!--an important truth to see indeed!!

    JustAChristian
    Last edited by JustAChristian; September 15th, 2001 at 06:46 PM.

  10. #100
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    Fascinating discussion and one worthy of this board. Since I am lazy right now I'll have to wait a few days. Please keep this thread alive!

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    I have noticed that no one has dealt with 1 Cor. 15 where baptsim is not mentioned as being a part of the Gospel. Hmmmmmmmmm....

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    Ian,

    Thank you for explaining your post again. Thank you also for not using the red font this time . If I understand this correctly, and please correct me if I don't have this right, you are using the book of Hebrews to show that baptism could be sprinkling.

    First of all:

    If you look in Numbers 19:18 in the Greek ...
    The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, not Greek .

    22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

    By this I understand that baptism by sprinkling, signifying the application of the cleansing blood, is a valid mode of baptism, and may be the commanded method.
    The Greek word used for "baptize" (such as Acts 2:38, Romans 6:3) is "baptizo". It has the following definitions:

    1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
    2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
    3) to overwhelm

    There is no mention of sprinkling at all in those definitions. Let's look at Hebrews 10:22 again:

    22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

    The Hebrew author used the term "sprinkled" as a metaphoric representation to the Hebrews due to the signifacance of the sprinkling of blood in the Old Testament and the effect that it had. Note that this is speaking about the heart (which is spiritual not physical). When it comes to our bodies, it plainly states that it is to be washed. How does the Bible define "wash"? See below:

    Acts 8:38-39

    38) So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

    39) Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.


    If sprinkling was acceptable for baptism, why didn't Philip fill up a cup or something and pour it over him? It says that they went down into the water and then came up out of the water. That is a far cry from sprinkling. Add to that the definition of the Greek word "baptizo", which is defined as immersion, dipping, etc., and nothing about sprinkling, and one can only come to the conclusion that baptism of total immersion is taught by the scriptures.

    It is impossible to be "buried" into the death of Jesus through baptism by sprinkling. It's like saying that you can bury somebody who is dead by sprinkling some dirt on him. If you do that, there will still be a lot of the body exposed, thus it's not buried. When you bury somebody, they are completely hidden from view. That's why when you go to a graveyard ALL you see are tombstones, and nothing of the person's actual body.

    Now, I've just shown you a verse that shows a person being baptized by going down into the water and coming up out of the water, completely supporting immersion, as it's defined in the Greek. My question to you is this: Can you show me a verse in the New Testament that says we can be baptized by having our bodies "sprinkled" with water?
    Praise be to God!

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    Over 500 post club Kevin's Avatar
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    Freak,

    I have noticed that no one has dealt with 1 Cor. 15 where baptsim is not mentioned as being a part of the Gospel. Hmmmmmmmmm....
    How can you say that the Great Commission isn't part of the gospel? Baptism was certainly commanded there.

    Heck if anybody has been dodging questions, it is you. Evangelion noticed it too...
    Last edited by Kevin; September 15th, 2001 at 11:52 PM.
    Praise be to God!

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    Huguenot,

    Fascinating discussion and one worthy of this board. Since I am lazy right now I'll have to wait a few days. Please keep this thread alive!
    I can't make any promises. There's not a whole lot of spare time for me (especially on weekdays) and I've already put in considerable time on this. I have to make time for my family, as well as other things here and there, and I don't want all of my spare time after that eaten up by this discussion board... especially considering the amount of people that I respond to.
    Last edited by Kevin; September 15th, 2001 at 11:39 PM.
    Praise be to God!

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    Kevin,

    I noticed you never answered my question. Please do so. Is baptism mentioned in 1 Cor. 15 where Paul reminds the believers what the Gospel consist of?

    Baptism is not the Gospel message. The Gospel is centered on the person of Jesus Christ not some act involving water.

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