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Thread: The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

  1. #76
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    Yes we do agree!

    Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the REMISSION OF SINS that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25
    To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26
    Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Rom. 3:27

    As we can SEE it is not ... be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38.... which is a work!

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    Over 500 post club Kevin's Avatar
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    Ian,

    Our works in no way make us acceptable to God. Our works are only acceptable because we are IN CHRIST:
    And just how do you think we become "IN CHRIST"?

    Galatians 3:27

    27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    Thank you for making my point for me . You yourself said that works are only acceptable because we are in Christ. And James said that it takes faith with works for faith to be alive. Well, if somebody isn't baptized (a work), they are not "in Christ", and haven't "put on" Christ. If you're not in Christ, you're not with the Father, and you certainly won't be in Heaven.

    Ephesians 2:8 doesn't mean that works do not play a role in our salvation. That just saying that it takes the grace of God to save us, for we are all sinners and fall short of His glory. God's grace saves us, but there are commandments that must be obeyed (works) to obtain that saving grace. If we do not obey His commandments, Gods grace won't be upon us.
    Praise be to God!

  3. #78
    Old Timer Evangelion's Avatar
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    Talking Exactly!

    Couldn't have said it better myself, Kevin.
    Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus,
    Dominus Deus Sabaoth.
    Pleni sunt coeli et terra gloria tua.


    I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.

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    Over 500 post club Kevin's Avatar
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    HopeofGlory,

    that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26
    And the person who has ture belief in Jesus will keep is commandments, which require unconditional obedience. Why do you think Jesus says "If you love Me you will keep My commandments." (John 14:15). If a person says he has belief and doesn't keep His commandments, then he is the proud owner of a dead belief.

    As we can SEE it is not ... be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38.... which is a work!
    If those people hadn't obeyed Peter and gotten baptized, I can assure you that those people's sins wouldn't have been forgiven. When Jesus commands it in the great commission, He expects it to be obeyed. And there's no way that you can convince me that baptism doesn't play a role in the remission of sins, because when Romans 6:3-6 tells me that it will make our bodies of sin done away with, and I believe just that.
    Last edited by Kevin; September 12th, 2001 at 10:50 PM.
    Praise be to God!

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    Over 500 post club Kevin's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Evangelion,

    Thank you for the support, sincerely!
    Praise be to God!

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Kevin,

    You say that "a person who has true belief in Jesus will keep His commandments,which require unconditional obedience."

    Are you telling me that since you believed you have completely obeyed the commandments of God?

    When asked,"Which is the great commandment of the law?",the Lord Jesus named two commandments.The second is ,"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"(Mt.22:39).

    Do you love your neighbor as yourself,Kevin?

    In His grace,--Jerry

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    Over 500 post club Kevin's Avatar
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    Hello Jerry,

    Are you telling me that since you believed you have completely obeyed the commandments of God?
    In other words am I perfect? No. Not even remotely close. Putting it bluntly, if Jesus commands it, I try to do my best to my ability to follow those commandments. It's humanly impossible to follow 100% of the commandments 100% of the time. That's why we have Jesus there to mediate for us when we repent of our sins and ask for forgivness.

    God knows all of our hearts. He knows who strives to obey His commandments and who doesn't. The thing is, when people know that something is a commandment, and chooses not to obey it, that is willful disobedience, and He won't tolerate it. But to the person who keeps His commandments and messes up every now and then and asks for forgiveness, to that person Jesus is the author of eternal salvation (Heb. 5:9).
    Praise be to God!

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    Exclamation Saving baptism is in blood !

    What is saving baptism ?
    What is salvation?
    Ultimately eternal life, IN CHRIST. THe transformation of a sinner, once dead in trespasses & sins to a living relationship with God in Christ. (John 3, Eph. 2)

    This salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit, so that believers are said to be born of the Spirit (John 3) or born of God (John 1).

    Jesus said that to have life, we have to eat his flesh & drink his blood. (John 6)

    I think that all of us will agree that Jesus is speaking figuratively. He's not speaking of communion but the spiritual significance, of which communion is the sign.

    Partaking of communion is not eating & drinking the flesh & blood of Jesus. Without already having eternal life, communion is not eating & drinking the flesh & blood of Christ.

    Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    1 Cor 11:25 After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.

    [Testament is if course COVENANT not "will."]

    Is baptism essentially immersing a person in water, who then becomes a Christian & receives remission of sins? (suggested by Acts 2:38)

    We need to understand "baptism" in terms of its Old Covenant usage, not in terms of ancient Greek recipes for pickles.

    Immersion can be inferred from Romans 6, but it nowhere specifically taught in Scripture. Note that the Old COvenant baptism is sprinkling with the blood of the sacrifice. (or the ashes of a sacrifice mixed with water.)

    Hebr 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers (washings) BAPTISMS, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.
    11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].
    13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
    14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


    The significance of baptism is the application of the blood of Christ to the repentant sinner. It speaks to the sinner of the cleansing of his conscience by the precious blood.

    And by submitting to baptism, the repentance sinner shows he is a repentant sinner, trusting in the blood of Christ for his cleansing from all sin, and that he is identifying himself with the people of God redeemed by the precious blood of Christ. And declaring his intention to serve the living God.

    Hebrews shows that the blood of Christ is the blood of the New Covenant, compared with the blood of the Old Covenant:

    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
    16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
    17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
    18 Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood.
    19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
    20 Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
    21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
    22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.


    Peter speaks of believers being sprinkled with the blood of Christ:

    1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


    And baptism cleansing the conscience:
    3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    Note that it is not the washing but the significance. The antitype (like figure) of being in the ark is being IN CHRIST, by all that baptism signifies.

    (Kevin)
    If those people hadn't obeyed Peter and gotten baptized, I can assure you that those people's sins wouldn't have been forgiven. When Jesus commands it in the great commission, He expects it to be obeyed. And there's no way that you can convince me that baptism doesn't play a role in the remission of sins, because when Romans 6:3-6 tells me that it will make our bodies of sin done away with, and I believe just that.
    Those who believed WERE baptised, and received all the benefits of the saving & cleansing blood of Christ. Those who rejected the message, & did not turn to God & refused baptism did not receive remission. Baptism was a sign to the new believers of the applied blood of Christ. They were baptised as new believers.

    New believers, with new life, spiritual life, new hearts, express their faith in Christ.

    Whether they are baptised by immersion, or sprinkling, or as infants who believe that theirs was a covenant baptism analogous to circumcision, the new life is real, and is expressed by active obedience & walking with God, in the Spirit. (Micah 6, Gal. 5)
    Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
    21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    In Christ,

    Ian

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    Over 750 post club c.moore's Avatar
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    be baptized

    that is great knowledge Ian I agree with you.
    I think it is obedience to or Lord Jesus to be baptized in water, like Jesus sence we try to follow jesus ways and do greater things as Jesus Christ we should be fully baptized to show other peolpe like a outward tesimony that we are giving up our old ways, and the sins are buried in the water, and when we come out the water we are beginning a new walk with Jesus Christ.
    I believe the baptism will not save anybody, but it is a act of obedience, and it shows the love toward Jesus Christ, who is God.
    The first and most important step is the spiritual baptism, and the washing of the blood of Jesus, that is the key to salvation.
    I thought I can just add this to gain more knowledge.

    God Bless
    With all your getting get understanding. prov 4:7

    Evangeist C.Moore
    www.revivaldisco.com

    Proverb:3:13: Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

    1Co:2:10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    1Co:2:11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    Proverb:12:15: The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
    Proverb:12:16: A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame.
    Proverb:12:17: He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
    Evangelist c.moore

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    Kevin

    If we read Romans 5 we can see how we are baptized into his death. You say it is by obeying in water baptism but this is not what Paul said.

    Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom. 5:1 (KJV)
    By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2 (KJV)

    Faith is required not water baptism which you agreed was a "work". If a work is required then salvation must be earned.

    Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Rom. 5:9 (KJV)

    We are justified by His blood and the only way that can be received is by faith.

    But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom. 5:15 (KJV)

    We can not add to the finished work of Christ and this "gift" must be received "freely" or it is no longer a gift.

    For as by one manís disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)

    It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be "free".

    Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:3 (KJV)

    Notice that it says baptized "into Jesus" not into "water". How are we to get into Jesus?...For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)

    Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:4 (KJV)

    Here it says "into death" not "water" . In other words when we are baptized by the Spirit we are in His body and we died with Him and it is received through "faith".

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    Kevin
    But to the person who keeps His commandments and messes up every now and then and asks for forgiveness, to that person Jesus is the author of eternal salvation (Heb. 5:9).
    A distinction:

    Our flesh (the nature we inherited from Adam) can never be forgiven. Instead God judged it to death at the cross.
    Our sins (the works of the flesh) are covered/forgiven by the blood of our Lord.

    The fact that we mess up every now and then is the result of us still walking in the flesh. Even the good we do in the flesh is as filthy rags. Even after our new birth we still have the flesh nature. If there is no more flesh then why do we stumble still in many things? (James 3 v 2) The question is which life are you living from?

    "For we know that whoever is born of God does not sin"
    1 John 5 v 18

    If you are living in dependence on the flesh you are under law, and because you are under law you manifest the fruits of the flesh. The strength of sin is the law.
    If you are living in dependence on the Spirit you have no need of the law. You will manifest the fruits of the Spirit because you are free in your position in Christ. This freedom is our inheritance as we have been baptised into Christ, and He is now our righteousness, santification etc.

    When we sin ours is the responsibility to confess and then to claim our forgiveness based on our position being in Christ. It is not our responsibility to try harder. It is because of this thinking that we fail in the first place. See Romans 7. Freedom from sin is a right not an effort, based on the the work of redemtion that the Father orchestrated for His good purpose.

    William Kelly states:

    Every believer is regarded by God as alive from the dead, to bring forth fruit [not works] unto God. The law only deals with a man as long as he lives; never after he is dead. 'For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God.' And that is not at all what is said after a 'second blessing,' ... or any other step of imaginary perfection. We began with it ... I am identified with Christ dead and risen. It is no longer the law dealing with me to try if it can get any good out of me. I have relinquished all by receiving the Lord Jesus, and I take my stand in Him dead and risen again ... as one alive from the dead, to yield myself to God.
    The Gospel supposes that, good and holy and perfect as the law of God is, it is entirely powerless either to justify or sanctify. It cannot in any way make the old nature better; neither is it the rule of life for the new nature. The old man is not subject to the law, and the new man does not need it. The new creature has another object before it, and another power acts upon it, in order to produce what is lovely and acceptable to God - Christ the object, realized by the power of the Holy Spirit

  12. #87
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    It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be free.
    Hopeofglory I like it!

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    Jason

    Thank you very much dear brother and may all the praise and glory be given to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ the God of heaven.

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    Over 500 post club Kevin's Avatar
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    Ian,

    This salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit, so that believers are said to be born of the Spirit (John 3) or born of God (John 1).
    Actually John 3 states "water and Spirit". Not just Spirit.

    Jesus said that to have life, we have to eat his flesh & drink his blood. (John 6)
    Jesus also said that He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. Why are you bringing Jesus's blood into this? I fully realize the signifcance of Jesus's blood. Without it, there wouldn't be any chance of salvation.

    But Jesus's blood won't do anybody any good unless we obey His commandments and become baptized INTO CHRIST.

    Immersion can be inferred from Romans 6, but it nowhere specifically taught in Scripture. Note that the Old COvenant baptism is sprinkling with the blood of the sacrifice. (or the ashes of a sacrifice mixed with water.)
    It may not *specifically* be taught in scripture, but if we are symbolically buried into the death of Jesus through baptism, sprinkling would not come even close to burying somebody, but immersion is spot on with that. When somebody dies, do they take a few handfuls of dirt and throw it on them and say "Yup, he's buried now."? No, they completely cover him, just like immersion completely coverers people.

    When Phillip batized the eunich, he baptized him in a river, certainly large enough for immersion. The many baptistry pools that are in Jerusalem, they're around 5 plus feet deep... why do you suppose that is? For sprinkling? Not even.
    Last edited by Kevin; September 14th, 2001 at 01:03 AM.
    Praise be to God!

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    Whoa Everybody!

    I've been reading everyone's posts on works and baptism and I don't even know where to start!

    It is more than astonishing, it is AMAZING, how some people will spend nearly a lifetime trying to "prove" that plain statements of the Bible don't really mean what they say!

    Observe:

    Acts 16:31 says, "BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus and you will be SAVED."

    Do you believe that the above statement teaches that BELIEVING in Jesus is necessary to be saved? You say, "Yes." Why? Because it is a plain statement of truth given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

    2 Cor. 7:10 says, "Godly sorrow brings REPENTANCE that leads to SALVATION."

    Do you believe that the above statement teaches that REPENTANCE is necessary to be saved? You say, "Yes." Why? Because it is a plain statement of truth given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

    Rom. 10:10 says, "It is with the mouth that you CONFESS and are SAVED."

    Do you believe the above statement teaches that CONFESSION is necessary to be saved? You say, "Yes." Why? Because it is a plain statement of truth given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

    1 Pet. 3:21 says, "BAPTISM also now SAVES you."

    Do you believe the above statement teaches that BAPTISM is necessary to be saved? You say, "No." Why? You tell me!

    (A) Because it doesn't fit what I was taught
    (B) Because I only choose to believe the first 3, not the 4th one
    (C) Because baptism is a "work" and we're not saved by works
    (D) Because I know that the verse plainly says that baptism saves us, but I've been taught by Pastor so-and-so that baptism does NOT save us. So... even though the scriptures say plainly that "baptism also now saves you," well, that's different from those other 3 you put up there before it. Don't ask me why, I just know it is. I'm going to have to go along with my pastor, after all, he's such a good man and has such a kind, sincere way about him. Everyone's known and loved him for so many, many years. Now how can you NOT believe someone like that if he says baptism is not necessary to be saved. No sir, I'll put my trust in Pastor so-and-so, rather in what the Bible says!

    I have a question for all of you who are so hung up on the idea of "works": Do you believe the scriptures teach that a person must REPENT in order to be saved? And you because you think that baptism is a "work," that it doesn't save us? Have you ever seen someone who has heard the message of truth, who knows what he needs to do, but is so enslaved to pornography or compulsive gambling or hooked on illegal drugs, to such a terrible degree that it represents a COLOSSAL effort and struggle on his part to CHANGE, which is exactly what repentance is. So, with tears in his eyes, he tries to change, but yet he is tormented by not being able to break free from being so enslaved to his lust for the sinful pleasures of this world.

    You talk about a lot of WORK! It takes some people a TREMENDOUS amount of WORK, a struggle for some, to repent of their sins and turn to Christ and begin trying to live an almost COMPLETELY DIFFERENT way of life.

    But according to all of you who are so hung up on the idea of "works," repentance then is NOT necessary to the one who takes a lot of "WORK" to get the job done. Because anything that is a "work" just isn't a part of being saved.

    I have one more question, regarding baptism...

    Those of you who cite Eph. 2:8, and say that this proves that baptism is NOT necessary to be saved, but rather only "grace through faith"... if the words of Eph. 2:8 are the correct words to use in telling someone what to do to be saved, then why were they NOT the words the Holy Spirit spoke at the conclusion of the very first gospel message ever spoken (Acts 2), to those who asked, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Why didn't the Holy Spirit say, "Just have faith, because you are all saved by grace through faith." And why did he NOT say, "Just believe in the Lord Jesus, you don't have to be baptized because baptism is a work and you are not saved by works." Nor did the Holy Spirit tell them to just "say the sinner's prayer, and mean it sincerely from your heart, and you will be forgiven of your sins and be saved."

    Instead, what the Holy Spirit DID say to that multitude of people who were condemned in their sins, was - Repent AND BE BAPTIZED, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SINS...." (Acts 2:38)

    I truly pity anyone who, when God has plainly told us all what to do to have our sins forgiven, goes before Him in the Great Judgment, and tries to explain to Him why they repented, but DID NOT obey His command to "be baptized" for the forgiveness of their sins; when BOTH commands - "Repent" and "be baptized" - were given in the Greek in the IMPERATIVE mood, which gives REPENTANCE AND BAPTISM EQUAL AUTHORITY, EQUAL URGENCY, AND THEREFORE BOTH ARE EQUALLY BINDING on people of all nations to obey.
    God bless...

    s-o-C

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