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Thread: The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

    As expected we have heretics spreading their destructive doctrines on this forum, namely O2bewise. Mr. O2bewise said the following on September 6th: "Salvation can only come by baptism".

    This pawn of Satan embraces and promotes a doctrine that will lead many to eternal hell. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. Baptism is not a requirement!

    One attains eternal life (salvation) thru simple belief in the person of Jesus. We see this in the words of Jesus when He said: "Everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life" (John 3:15).

    Another time when addressing the people of His day, Jesus was asked: "What must we do to do the works God requires?", Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent" (John 6:28-29).

    Note no mention of baptism.

    Jesus made it clear O2bewise: I AM THE GATE; WHOEVER ENTERS THROUGH ME WILL BE SAVED (John 10:9).

    Again no mention of baptism, apparently to o2bewise, Jesus must have misspoken here.

    I would urge my fellow believers in the Lord Jesus to come against O2bewise's devilish doctrines. This man degrades our Lord when He speaks against Him by stating baptism is required to be saved. This is in direct opposition to what our Lord said. Jesus said just come unto Him and you will be saved.

    Some unbelievers once asked the disciples: "What must I do to be saved?"

    They replied: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31).

    Note again no mention of baptism. Just belief in the Lord Jesus.

    I think for me and my household we will listen to Jesus then o2bewise and his wicked ways.
    Last edited by Freak; December 19th, 2003 at 03:15 PM.

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    Newbie o2bfaithful's Avatar
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    Last edited by o2bfaithful; September 7th, 2001 at 06:14 PM.

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    O2bewise, please prove me wrong. I would be more than willing to retract my earlier posts.

    Is baptism necessary for salvation?

    Can one be saved if not baptized in water?

    Is baptism a part of the Gospel message?

    I'll be looking forward to your response.

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    This previous posting to Rapt is relevant:

    Rapt,

    You asked a question a while back, which I did not answer at the time.
    (Ian: )
    Salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the sinner, whereby he is given new spiritual life. Certainly baptism is commanded, but it is for the believer, already saved, already with new life from the dead, already quickened. It is the cleansing of the conscience, the application of the blood of the sacrifice, the blood of the covenant, (Heb. 9 & 13) as the Lord's Supper is the partaking of the sacrifice.

    Rapt to Ian,
    It seems to me that on the one hand, you agree that we are commanded to be baptized, and that it is at that point which one that believes receives the "cleansing of the conscience, the application of the blood of the sacrifice, the blood of the covenant", and "the partaking of the sacrifice", yet on the other hand, you see it as a response to gospel, which one who is "already saved, already with new life from the dead, already quickeded" does.

    Don't the many scriptures that say that we are "raised with Christ" through baptism into His death mean anything to you? You're putting the cart before the horse. You can't leave baptism out of the presentation of the gospel any more than you can omit godly living and repentance, and still have the whole gospel. Peter didn't; Paul didn't; not even John the baptist omitted baptism. He didn't have the entire gospel, but he had the preperation of it. Part of believing on the one that should come included repentance and baptism. It STILL includes baptism, and every example we have in scripture when someone believed, they immediately got baptized. So why belittle the command?


    Let me ask you: does one (who never heard the whole gospel), who had repented, and professed Jesus as his Lord, remain right with God and "saved" once he realizes that he is commanded to be baptized, if he claims that he is already saved, and therefore sees no need to get baptized? Does he retain his professed "salvation"?
    Baptism is understood by evangelical Christians in various ways.
    1. "Covenant baptism" equivalent to circ-umcision, therefore applied to babies within the church. The significance is important.
    2. "Believers' baptism" administered to new believers as a sign of various spiritual blessings (see above.) Baptism is normally required for church membership. It is not considered essential for salvation, because it is for believers. THe mode of baptism is not important. The significance is important. (My position.)
    3. Baptism by immersion required for remission of sins and therefore salvation. A person is considered unsaved until he is baptised. (Rapt's position.)

    While I do not hold with infant baptism, I cannot reject it as invalid, because that would mean rejecting as unbelievers many godly Christians alive & dead. Most of those responsible for our translations, commentaries, and the proclaiming of the Gospel down the ages have held this position against the baptist position. Most also accept baptism by sprinkling.

    Sprinkling can be understood from Hebrews 9:10 where "various baptisms" refers to Old Covenant sprinklings with water & ashes, water & blood, etc. THe Passover lamb blood was sprinkled on the door posts. With this understanding, Peter's reference to "sprinkled blood" becomes a reference to baptism. (1 Peter 1:2)

    When we refer to the LXX we find Naaman baptising himself in the Jordan. (2 Kings 5:14) THe LXX word translated dipped is "ebaptisato" from the Heb. "tabal". Tabal is used a number times to dip, as in dip (LXX "bapsei") & sprinkle, e.g.
    Num 19:18 And a clean person shall take hyssop, and dip [it] in the water, and sprinkle [it] upon the tent, and upon all the vessels, and upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched a bone, or one slain, or one dead, or a grave:
    THis is part of the "red heifer" ritual referred to in Hebrew 9. Thanks, http://www.BlueletterBible.org/ for easy access to Hebrew & Greek.

    From this I understand a dip and pour/sprinkle method to be valid baptism. John could quite easily have stood in the Jordan and baptised by scooping water in cupped hands to apply to the head of the penitent sinner. It would have made it possible for 3000 people to be baptised on the day of Pentecost without taking over the public water supply. (Courtesy of the Roman & Jewish authorities who had just crucified the one in whose name the baptisms were taking place!)

    I don't believe a believer who was not baptised as a baby who learnt about believers' baptism would refuse it. He has the Holy Spirit guiding him. Nor do I think one baptised in infancy & who refused believers' baptism is being disobedient to Christ's command, if he understands "covenant baptism."
    Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
    21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    In Christ,

    Ian

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    Journeyman o2bwise's Avatar
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    Exclamation Please Read Carefully

    Hi Freak,

    I think the true application of Peter's statement is baptism of the spirit. I never once referred to baptism by water.

    I belioeve that salvation is an innate attribute of righteousness itself. Baptism is the fullness of that experience, the experience of being made righteous by grace working through faith.

    The work is entirely God's through His Son Jesus Christ.

    NOTE: Anyone who has BEGUN to allow that work to take place is POSITIONALLY righteous.

    o2bfaithful,

    Thanks!

    Tony (o2 - oops! Might be ambiguous!)

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Please answer my questions o2bewise.

    Thanks.

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    Journeyman o2bwise's Avatar
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    Post Oh That Freak Could See

    Hi Freak,

    O2bewise, please prove me wrong. I would be more than willing to retract my earlier posts.

    It is hard to prove you wrong TO YOUR SATISFACTION because of your poor eyesight.

    Whether you retract or not means NOTHING to me. You are only a man, you are not God.

    Is baptism necessary for salvation?

    Yes. Baptism by the spirit IS SALVATION.

    What do you think salvation is, Freak?

    Can one be saved if not baptized in water?

    Yes.

    Is baptism a part of the Gospel message?

    Yes.

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Since you think baptism is part of the Gospel I stand by all my statements.

    Have you read 1 Cor. 15 where paul clealry explained what the Gospel is? Hint: It has nothing to do with baptism.

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    Journeyman o2bwise's Avatar
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    Hi Freak,

    I really don't care what you stand by (in terms of its veracity). I certainly don't pay it much significance. I don't see much veracity in much of anything you write.

    Since you think baptism is part of the Gospel I stand by all my statements.

    Have you read 1 Cor. 15 where paul clealry explained what the Gospel is? Hint: It has nothing to do with baptism.


    Ephesians states that we are to be washed by the WATER OF THE WORD. This WASHING, in its fullness, IS BAPTISM.

    It is being so immersed in the word that the word, which is the power and is grace, completes its work of making righteous.

    That is the gospel. Receiving the "good news" and the gospel received, in its fullness, IS BAPTISM.

    Now, as to baptism by water, you say it is NOT a part of the gospel. God gave us teachers, evangelists, etc. UNTIL there is no further need for them.

    He also gave us little teaching guides. He gave us communion so that we could benefit from its instruction. In other words, the actual partaking of bread and wine (I believe juice, but whatever) is a helper. A helper to aid us in what? In receiving the word by faith, which is the essence of the gospel.

    Baptism by water is a physical rite, but it serves a purpose as it must (else, why would God have it be so substantially referred to in His Word?). It helps us commit. In public assembly, when one submits to baptism, one is "helped" by the partaking of the physical rite itself. Just as one is helped by other physical rites (eating a piece of bread as one is contemplating Calvary, for example).

    You say that such rites, serving as helpers so as to experience the gospel more fully, are not a part of the gospel.

    I say that ANYTHING God gives us, whose purpose is to help us more fully appropriate the gospel, IS a part of the gospel.

    Furthermore, I think you assume a level of authority that you do not rightfully possess. I think you should have a lower estimation of yourself and not set yourself up as some ultimate guardian of the pure gospel.

    You don't even know what it is. You're simply not qualified.

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    O2bewise,

    You have proven to me once again you are unable to deal with God's Truth. Did you read what paul said the Gospel was in 1 Cor. 15? Don't take my word take Paul's word regarding this issue at hand.

    Paul never mentioned baptism in 1 Cor. 15 because it is not the Gospel message. The Gospel message is centered on Jesus not baptism. Thank you very much.

    As to your other comments they bear no truth in them. Until you have been where I have been I would reserve your comments until another time.

    By the way, you are a false teacher according to God's Word. You are a false teacher. You reject the eternal nature of Jesus Christ as being eternal God.
    Last edited by Freak; September 7th, 2001 at 11:59 AM.

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    Question

    Freak,

    I referred PRIMARILY to baptism in its spiritual meaning, not the physical rite of immersion in water.

    Would you do me a favor?

    Quote for me:
    Romans 6:4.

    And then explain, keeping in mind Romans 6:4, how baptism has nothing to do with the gospel.

    You must compare spiritual with spiritual in order to attain a clearer picture. Paul simply was not using the terminology "baptism" in 1 Corinthians 15, however, he was referring to that which baptism is (death to old life, risen to new life).

    o2

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    O2BW,

    As far as I can see, what you are saying about baptism is not heretical. Believers are baptised; they don't become believers by baptism.

    I had a long argument with Freak about 1 Cor. 15, as to what the Gospel is.
    Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
    21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    In Christ,

    Ian

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    Newbie o2bfaithful's Avatar
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    "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." Rom 6:4

    Freak? Is there "new life" without this baptism?

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Please be aware my fellow believers that when o2bewise mentions Jesus , he is referring to another Jesus. The Biblical Jesus is eternal God, o2bewise dismisses this vital truth. So when he refers to baptism it is a baptism unto a different Jesus. So this baptism is not a legit baptism but a false one. Hence my statements and my concerns.

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    Resident Fiend Gerald's Avatar
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    All this from someone who insists he's gone head-to-head with otherworldly bug-uglies...

    Good to see you back, Freak...

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