Battle Talk ~ BR XI

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jeremiah

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Primghar said:
I read theo's post again, and just to back myself up about the whole forgiveness ranting that Jeremiah did, this is a direct quote from Theo's post:
“Forgive them all and let God sort them out.”

peace out.


Was I ranting? It is funny to see how people take the written word. If I could have spoken my post to you, you would have gotten the sense that I was thinking out loud, and grappling with a difficult concept. The concept of genuine, true and total forgiveness. I was not able to put into words exactly what I was thinking, because it is such a difficult concept, and act. I was not really satisfied with my post and I almost deleted it. I am glad to see that you picked up on it, but no, I was not ranting. :)

So let me try again! If true forgivenes,s as shown by Jesus, means not executing murderers, it seems to me that it is "almost", and I stress almost, a nonissue to condemn, in any way, those who execute murderers.

Or here is the other way of looking at it. {Again I am thinking out loud} If the DP is wrong for murderers and life imprisonment is right? Then what should be the penalty for those who execute murderers, in the ideal world of a non DP advocate. Since they have taken a life, they "either" have to be punished, "or" they have to be allowed to teach Sunday school, and babysit your kids.

If murder is wrong and executing murderers is considered equivalently wrong, then the forgiveness for both must be equal, and the punishment must be equal.

I personally think that needs to be specifically stated. Perhaps you are correct that the dictum "forgive them all and let God sort them out" covers it. To me that dictum "almost" makes every wrong between people a nonissue!
 

jeremiah

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On this forum you can not edit your posts, even for typing and spelling errors, so please "forgive" me of such "sins". ;)
 

Primghar

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stipe said:
would it be correct to think that part of forgiveness is accepting the consequences of ones sin?


I would agree with that. However, I don't think any human person should decide what the "consequences of ones sin" ought to be.
 

JoyfulRook

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Primghar said:
I would agree with that. However, I don't think any human person should decide what the "consequences of ones sin" ought to be.
That's why God put the punishment and consequences down in the Bible. He authorized Governments to punish criminals. Do you agree with that statement?

I'll say it again: Do you agree that God authorized Governments to punish criminals?
 

Servo

Formerly Shimei!
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Primghar said:
I would agree with that. However, I don't think any human person should decide what the "consequences of ones sin" ought to be.


How about the consequences of one's crime? Can a human decide how someone should be punished for a certain crime?
 

Primghar

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Shimei said:
How about the consequences of one's crime? Can a human decide how someone should be punished for a certain crime?

Sure, they CAN decide, but i'm not sure how fair or just it would be. For example, someone said earlier (i don't remember who) that flogging would be fair punishment for stealing. But i don't agree with that; i don't think that is just or fair. So, i am not sure a human can come up with a punishment that fits the crime. i don't know.
 

Primghar

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Dread Helm said:
That's why God put the punishment and consequences down in the Bible. He authorized Governments to punish criminals. Do you agree with that statement?

I'll say it again: Do you agree that God authorized Governments to punish criminals?

Well, Dread Helm, since you seemingly ignore and refuse to answer any of the questions I have asked you, I am gonna go ahead and follow your lead.
 

Servo

Formerly Shimei!
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Primghar said:
Sure, they CAN decide, but i'm not sure how fair or just it would be. For example, someone said earlier (i don't remember who) that flogging would be fair punishment for stealing. But i don't agree with that; i don't think that is just or fair. So, i am not sure a human can come up with a punishment that fits the crime. i don't know.


That is why it is good to see what God's opinion is. He told us in His Word.
Agreed?
 

hitek357

New member
Knight said:
Turbo is on the clock, he has until Friday the 22nd 1:27AM (MDT) to make his second round post.
That should give Turbo plenty of time to relax, since he will only need about 30 minutes to demolish the Sunday School-level arguments made by Theo.
 

JoyfulRook

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Hey! Weren't you supposed to forgive me?

Hey! Weren't you supposed to forgive me?

Primghar said:
Well, Dread Helm, since you seemingly ignore and refuse to answer any of the questions I have asked you, I am gonna go ahead and follow your lead.
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware you asked any questions... I'll look back through the pages. In the meantime, can you answer my question?
 
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JoyfulRook

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This must be what you're talking about. My good buddy Wamba answered your questions to my satisfaction (to whom you didn't reply), but I can take another shot at them.

Primghar said:
I know she was talking about overpopulation in prisons. What about the people who are in prison for theft--should we kill them as well?
No, we need to use biblical methods such as restitution.

I am so confused. Why do you have such a "no tolerance" attitude?
Because we shouldn't just "forgive and forget" any punishments.
Weren't all Christians given a chance to accept Christ; why should we take that chance away from anyone else?
Criminals have to pay the consequences of their crimes: Christian or no Christian.
Are we more "worthy" of being saved than others?
No. Every one should have the chance to be saved. Did the murderer's victim get that chance? Yes, but it was certainly cut short. The murderer needs to pay the God ordained consequences of his crime. He will have the chance to convert...right before he gets a short drop and a sudden stop.
Christ taught many times that we should forgive others, so I am wondering why you (or any other Christian) is exempt from doing that.
You're right. Christ did teach to forgive. But Jesus was talking about individual relationships, not government policy toward criminals. Besides, you can only forgive someone to the extent they have hurt you.
I have a question for you, Dread Helm. What does Matthew 18:21-35 mean to you?
  1. This is again talking about individuals, not Government policy. If someone sins against you (ie. lies) and then repents and asks for forgiveness, certainly forgive him. But if a man rapes a woman (a crime), and he is later caught and then repents and asks for forgiveness, the woman can forgive him but he has in no way voidated his punishment.
  2. Jesus was preaching from under the Law: i.e. "If you don't forgive, you won't be forgiven." We are under Grace, therefore Paul's teaching: "Forgive others, because God has forgiven you" is much more applicable to us dealing with other individuals.
Now that I've answered all of your questions, please begin to answer my new line of questioning: Do you agree that God authorized Governments to punish criminals?
 

Nomad

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holy cow Turbo rattled off a lot of questions..Im not convinced that thats too much of a strength though, being short is a good thing
 

jeremiah

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That was a very long response by Turbo, with lots of points being made. Yet despite there being "so much" I found "so little" to disagree with.

I have been a believer since 1986, and those cliches were around back then. "If someone sins, forgive him", and "do not judge, lest you be judged."

I heard a preacher on the radio, just yesterday ask; "Where do Christians get most of their wrong doctrine?" His answer- "The Bible"......and its true!

Fortunately back in 1986 I got saved in a wonderful little Calvary Chapel, and we had a wonderful preacher who really taught us to study our Bibles, ask the Holy Spirit for wisdom and insight, and notice "context" and "every" word. Therefore when confronted with theses cliches, back then and since, I came to the same understanding as Turbo has expressed in his response.

The only disagreement I would have with Turbo, would be with the Sabbath, which is not the topic of this Battle Royale anyway. However I was pleasently surprised to see that he correctly identified it as, mowing your lawn on Saturday, and not Sunday, which is a common mistake of most of today's Christians.

I personally do not see how theo_victus is going to make any points by debating scriptures, "point by point". I am waiting to see how he develops the act and concept of forgiveness, which he said is his main point, and reason, for being a Christian who is against the DP.

In my mind that is the only way he could make any headway with me. I will wait and see!
 

Delmar

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Turbo said:
Since you have stated that the government should punish criminals, I can turn this line of questioning right back on you.

TurboQ16 Should the government punish people who mow their lawns on Saturday?

TurboQ17 Is it even sinful for people living today to mow their lawns on Saturday?

TurboQ18 Should the government imprison all unbelievers (who are all rebellious against God)?

TurboQ19 How do you determine which actions should be criminal, and what are the things that should mandate punishment from the government?.
This is my favorite section of the debate so far.
 

novice

Who is the stooge now?
jeremiah said:
That was a very long response by Turbo
:shocked: These posts are short compared to recent BR's!

Actually I am glad the posts are a bit shorter. I can really follow this debate. Turbo packed his 2nd round post with TONS of content and responded brilliantly to Theo's questions. It seems to me Theo has lost his foundation, what does he have left?
 

GuySmiley

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I'm anxiously awaiting how theo will explain why the DP is wrong because of repentence and forgiveness, but why all punishment is not wrong for the same reason. Great round by Turbo.
 
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