docrob57 said:
No, this isn't really the same thing. The only way God's foreknowledge would restrict the actor's freedom is if God himself restricted it. In my view, God is able to predict with complete accuracy the future event. It happens not because God knows it will happen. It happens as a consequence of the caused free choice.
Hi
From what you are saying it sounds like God gathers info and then makes a prediction based on that info. Thats how a man would do it. This sounds like a god who is in time--a logical and mathematical impossibility --infintine regression never arrives at the present.
I want you to consider a timeless God is what 99.9 % of christians and theologians believe. They see no problem with God's effects being caused fom eternity. Just as the spokes from a wheel all originate from 1 point but materialize at different points at the outer edge. People latch onto alternatives due to their own failings--not the teachings failings--so they make up a theory that solves their objection----and they explain away the hundreds of objections their theory causes. All the trees(scripture) must be left standing..you dont chop dont half the forest so another part will be clearer to you.
About freewill--you mentioned random number generator. Now, Im not a calvin or an armin--I believe the complexity of time with timeless makes it possible for us to choose God and for God to choose us. it may be good enough to say we just dont know. It may be unsearchable to our minds and certainly is presented as a paradox in scripture by Paul.
But I play around with it in theory.
Scripture say God knows us fully..what we will say..where we will live..when we are born. Christ would be crucifed just as the serpent was raised by Moses. Jesus would be betrayed for 30 pieces. Cyrus would rule. Exact times nations would rise--how many--and what they would do. Peter would deny christ 3 times before the **** crowed.
He also know what would happen in all circumstances.
1 Samuel 23:11
Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me to him? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? O LORD, God of Israel, tell your servant." And the LORD said, "He will."
If David went to Keilah..Saul would go there and the people would hand David over. God told David what would happen if David went there. So David did not go. Saul heard david didnt go--so Saul never went..and the people never had the chance to surrender David.
Now, those people would have done this evil. God restrains evil and thus limits what we can do freely. No one could have killed Paul before his time. Jesus needed to live until the passover. But are the people who wanted to kill Paul guity? Yes..sin is of the mind as Jesus clearly points out.
the people of keilah would have betrayed David--they were guilty. God knows us fully. He knows who were are. He knows what we will do. Just because we dont actually do it doesnt clear us.
Matt 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
I have often considered in regard to freewill and God purpose as God weaving together our free choices--who we are--to accomplish his purpose.
In other words, some will say that the men who killed Christ had no choice
Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, [ Or of those not having the law (that is, Gentiles)] put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
But did God, who knows who these men are---determining the exact places and times they will live in---weaves toegther their freewill acts to accomplish Salvation. Christ had to die at that exact time in history.
I think anyone who believes in freewill--- believes it's freewill with many conditions.
The last thing is in relation to just who we are. Does God leave it to chance that someone will be smart. That he may have a 100mph fastball? That they may be a musical genius? Does God compose the attributes of their thoughts. I think it is quite clear that just as God choose the color of grass--he created each of us unique.
In regard to Angels, Satan was created with more than other angels.
Calvins would tell you Satan was created to eventually turn bad. But how about this. God creates freewill beings with various gifts and allows various deficiencies. It is Gods will to create a certain number of beings. Their thoughts are allowed to travel in almost any direction. I know you dont want to picture it as like a random number generator--but when allowed to think *most anything we want you cant help but see a pattern form in where some turn bad and some do not.
If we represented thoughts that lead to good or faith by even numbers and thoughts contrary as odd---plus compounded thoughts of either leading to an overwhelming sequence revealing who we actually are--it may look like this
2746986229744227422964446776224226227886622448866
if you look close..the even numbers start to compound the more they are thought and if you continue compounding the amount ---even will outnumber odd by 100 to 1.
Now obviously this illustration is laughable to God. Some little puny man trying imagine how beings are created...but my point is maybe math is not a such a terrible way to approach the fact that a certain percentage of beings will not accept God.
So *if God weaves together who we truly are though history---it follows that it does not voilate who we really are. Pharoah was punk. To harden him in certain situations didnt voilate who he truly was.
Please note I am not saying God looks down though time to see who we truly are. He knows us fully in everyway.
