BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3)

elected4ever · Aug 15, 2005

Rimi said:
If God knew it before it came to be, then there was no choice. It was laid out from the beginning. Thinking that God can only know the knowable isn't taking Him off His throne at all. It's acknowledging His divine degree that we have free will. Free to turn left or right. Free to love or hate.

lier, lier pants on fire

Rimi · Aug 15, 2005

elected4ever said:
lier, lier pants on fire

Inane. You're as lost on this subject as a dog in high grass.

Shadowx · Aug 15, 2005

"or·dain
tr.v. or·dained, or·dain·ing, or·dains

- To **order **by virtue of superior authority; decree or enact.
- To prearrange unalterably; predestine: by fate ordained."

God says he did not *order* Israel to murder their kids to false Gods.

1)Zman, If God ordained/ordered Israel to murder their kids to false Gods, would you agree that at some point in time, or outside time... .. that it would have had to of come into God's mind/heart?
He said it never did, what say you?

You use the cross, Jesus willfully laying down his life, even though it was obviously painful for him to do it, to show that God ordains things that he doesn't want to ordain??? God wanted the cross to happen, he didn't want men to sin so it would be necessary.

1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Obedience is better then sacrifice, this is universal, and even, especially, applies to Adam and Eve.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.[/I]

Obedience=righteousness. Disobedience= sin.

If the first Adam had obeyed there would be no reason for the death of the second. And God would have thought it BETTER not worse, but better then Jesus dieing on the cross. God doesn't need people to sin to be Glorified

2)Zman, is obedience better then sacrifice? Does God delight more in obedience or sacrifice? Which would he rather have and which brings him the most glory?

3)In your theology isn't it true that there really is no such thing as disobedience to God? Are we not always obeying God no matter what we do?

Good parents want to discipline their kids, they do not want their kids to do that which requires it.

4)When Jesus said "God *Would* send me angels to rescue me from this moment" could he have been wrong? (Sam asks this question in the debate, could Jesus have been wrong?)

In fact Jesus said it like this, after Peter unknowingly tried to interfere with His plan to die for us. "Peter don't think God wouldn't send me angels if I wanted Him to"
Zman, don't think God would not have if Jesus wanted it..unless you are willing to agree that Jesus could have been mistaken..

And when you have time, could you answer my previous post to you?

Delmar · Aug 15, 2005

Z Man said:
Who the hell has ever raped a baby?

There are sick people in the world and it has happened. When it did was it ordained by God?

Why do you guys get all dramatic and offensive against my views by declaring such retarded notions?

Because if you would accuse God of ordaining rape then your wiews are indeed offensive

Wanted? No. But ordained? Yes.

Did Christ want to die on the cross? No.

He didn't want to have to suffer but he did, in fact, want to do what it took to save us! (that would be a yes!)

Was it ordained by God that He do it anyways? Yes. Did you really want to spank your child for misbehaving? No.

I don't want my child to misbehave but when he does, yes I want to set him straight!

But was it necessary for a better cause in the end? Yes. We may not understand why God would allow such calamities as rape to occur in our lives, but our knowledge and desires in life are limited to only what we know of the short days we exist on earth.

You would if you understood the Bible!

But God's view is eternal. He sees past the few days that we cannot. He has an eternal plan. The least you can do is trust Him during times you don't understand or are suffering.

All of these examples you bring up to prove freewill are horrible. Not to mention, you are not making a clear rebuttal against my post HERE. My point is that God ordains calamities in our life, and Scripture proves it. You have begun an entirely different debate about freewill.

Delmar · Aug 15, 2005

elected4ever said:
Before the earth was God made a plan. God in real time is experiencing the plan. A builder will make plans but does not experience the building of the building until construction begins. So it is with God. He made the plan and is now in the process of executing the plan. I think where you and I differ is the detail of God's plan. Where you see the execution of God's plan subject to unforeseen problems where adjustments have to be made I see a complete and perfect plan being executed. All things known before the fact and no correction necessary.

So if you, like we OV'ers, view God as experiencing time what would you say is the mechanism for God to know, for example who will win the 2025 Super Bowl?

This view is flawed at its very core. It requires that God be fallible in the design of the plan and in its execution. In order for your view to be true God must be assigned the fallibility of man. This calls into question God's character and reliability. God must become less than what he is, Absolute perfection. Such a concept more defines God in myth than in truth.

Please expand. I am not getting the point of " God must be assigned the fallibility of man"

1Way · Aug 15, 2005

Deardelmar,
Hmmm, so did Dave ever get back with you, from a couple pages back? You observed how he was falsifying the open view, and I also found him presenting a very strange understanding of these views. Repost

Dave,

As to your comment to Crash about him not wanting to allow YOU to defer to God’s power as to the mechanism for His foreknowledge. Man are you el wrongo. It is the bible’s teaching that God’s mechanism for taking care of things yet future is because of His power to bring them to pass, as opposed to absolutely settled forknowledge. And that’s right, that explaination is at the heart of Open Theism, whereas at the heart of the closed view, is exhaustive foreknowledge instead.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, 'My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,'
11 Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it;
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it;
I will also do it.

Click to expand...

So yes, God’s power is central to His Foreknowledge. But don’t forget, sometimes God does NOT do what He said or thought He would do. Jer 18 1-10.

1Way · Aug 15, 2005

When folks are found misrepresenting views after being well exposed to them, well, it's a rather unfortunate situation.

Delmar · Aug 15, 2005

1Way said:
Deardelmar,
Hmmm, so did Dave ever get back with you, from a couple pages back? You observed how he was falsifying the open view, and I also found him presenting a very strange understanding of these views. Repost

Dave Miller? No, not that I saw.

Z Man · Aug 15, 2005

Shadowx said:
1) Zman, If God ordained/ordered Israel to murder their kids to false Gods, would you agree that at some point in time, or outside time... .. that it would have had to of come into God's mind/heart?
He said it never did, what say you?

I say that we're in some deep anthropomorphism here. I believe God is illustrating, in laymen terms, that He never commanded Israel to do such horrifying things as they were doing in their worship to Baal, to get them to see how much better it is with God. God using words like 'mind' and the such are just His way of explaining how horrible the Israelites have veered from God's original commandments. I don't really think God has a 'mind', persay. Do you?

2)Zman, is obedience better then sacrifice? Does God delight more in obedience or sacrifice? Which would he rather have and which brings him the most glory?

1 Sam. 15:22 plainly states that God delights in obediance more than sacrifice. In other words, God is more interested in the heart than in your good works. Many Jews took sacrificing for granted, thinking that they could get away with a lot of stuff, as long as they made a sacrifice at the end of the day, or week, or month, or whatever, to cover their sins. But God made it known that He is more interested in genuine love and obediance from the heart rather than someone who uses God to cover their guilt. That's all I take from that verse.

3)In your theology isn't it true that there really is no such thing as disobedience to God? Are we not always obeying God no matter what we do?

Of course not. When we sin, it's not because God MADE us against our will. A person's desire to murder someone, or to rob a store, are not for God's glory, but for their own personal glory or selfish ambitions. God's purpose in ordaining such an event, however, has a much wider view in hand. God's all-wise purpose in everything He does is to be glorified. God ordained the actions of all those people who brought Jesus before trial to be beaten and crucified, and yet, their desire was to rid a threat to their 'way of life'. But God's purpose was to, of course, provide redemption to mankind. Joseph's brothers meant to harm and bring evil against Joseph when they sold him into slavery, but God ordained the whole event to bring about much good throughout all the land of Egypt and those who experienced the famine. Pharoah did not let the Israelites go because of his pride and selfish plans to keep them as slaves. But God hardened Pharaoh's heart and would not allow Pharaoh to release the Israelites, so that God could show Egypt who the Boss really was.

In all these instances, all the people disobeyed God in some form or fashion, as we all do everyday, and yet, all things have been predestined long ago to bring about one purpose; the glorification of God. And still, we will all give an account for what we've done.

4)When Jesus said "God *Would* send me angels to rescue me from this moment" could he have been wrong? (Sam asks this question in the debate, could Jesus have been wrong?)

Of course not.

And when you have time, could you answer my previous post to you?

What post? I'm sorry I missed it.

CRASH · Aug 15, 2005

Confused and Suffering

Confused and Suffering

Z Man said:
Who the hell has ever raped a baby? Why do you guys get all dramatic and offensive against my views by declaring such retarded notions?
.

We read the newspaper, books and watch TV, we are alive - Kinsey sex researchers raped babies and so are many aninmist Africans right now because they think it will give them a longer life - it is one of the reasons for the rapid spread of aids - which I might point out was all ordained by "z's god"

Z Man said:
Wanted? No. But ordained? Yes.

Inane. Why would God ordain something He does not want???

Z Man said:
Did Christ want to die on the cross? No. Was it ordained by God that He do it anyways? Yes. Did you really want to spank your child for misbehaving? No. But was it necessary for a better cause in the end? Yes. We may not understand why God would allow such calamities as rape to occur in our lives, (We all understand except you - it is because people have freewill and they are basically evil) but our knowledge and desires in life are limited to only what we know of the short days we exist on earth. Huh? But God's view is eternal. Mantra. He sees past the few days that we cannot. He has an eternal plan. The least you can do is trust Him during times you don't understand or are suffering. Who are you talking to? No open viewer doesn't trust God when they are confused or suffering. Are you confused and suffering?

Jeeezzz

Z Man · Aug 15, 2005

deardelmar said:
There are sick people in the world and it has happened. When it did was it ordained by God?

Give me an example of a case in this world where a baby was raped.

Because if you would accuse God of ordaining rape then your wiews are indeed offensive.

The difference between us is when you think of God ordaining rape, you see God doing the raping. When I think of God ordaining rape, I see man doing the raping. Big difference there, and until we come together on this issue, we'll continue to talk past one another.

[Jesus] didn't want to have to suffer but he did, in fact, want to do what it took to save us! (that would be a yes!)

In the same sense, He may not want to will that evil exists, but He continues to allow it so that a greater good may arise in the end.

Z Man said:
Z Man said:

We may not understand why God would allow such calamities as rape to occur in our lives, but our knowledge and desires in life are limited to only what we know of the short days we exist on earth.

Click to expand...

You would if you understood the Bible!

Shadowx · Aug 15, 2005

Zman: "What post? I'm sorry I missed it."

Zman, post #566, but don't respond to it for now, unless of course it has been predestined..

I'm going to merge the parts of that post that I don't think you hare addressed and add them to my response to your post #629, sometime tommorrow.

RightIdea · Aug 15, 2005

Z-Man, you certainly must live a closeted life. I can't believe you are unaware that people in this world rape babies. Are you literally that sheltered???

You want to know? Do you? I have seen pictures of such abominable acts. I will not say how I did (NO, I have never been into that kind of thing!) but I have! I have personally seen it. Now, I don't expect you to have seen such horrific abominations... but for criminy sake, it's in the news periodically! Because of the AIDS epidemic in Africa, many third-world countries there with relatively aboriginal cultures have created urban legends that an AIDS victim can cure himself by having sex with a virgin. And so, because even young teen girls may have already had sex, many of these depraved men are going out and raping babies in a ludicrous, insane and Satanic attempt to save their own lives, because a baby is guaranteed to be a virgin! Some are even gang raped by a half dozen men or more in one event!!! You think we're making this up? Are you calling us liars?

Feast your ignorant eyes on this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1703595.stm

http://www.aegis.com/news/upi/2001/UP011106.html

For goodness' sake, just Google it! By doing a search on "rape babies Africa AIDS" ... I got over half a million hits! I didn't search through every page of results, but on page 19, I was still finding stories about infant rape in Africa. What does that tell you?

It tells you that you don't know what the crap you're talking about.

Z Man · Aug 15, 2005

CRASH said:
We read the newspaper, books and watch TV, we are alive - Kinsey sex researchers raped babies and so are many aninmist Africans right now because they think it will give them a longer life - it is one of the reasons for the rapid spread of aids - which I might point out was all ordained by "z's god"

Job 2:10
"You speak as one of the foolish [Open Theists] speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?"

-NKJV, with a little editing by me...

Inane. Why would God ordain something He does not want???

Why do we all get up in the morning to go to work? Why do we shave our beards or our legs? Why do we take out the trash? Why do we mop our floors? Why do we clean our toilets? Why do we spank our kids? Why do we do some things that we don't really want to do?

In the same sense, God may have the patience to will evil for the time being, but His judgement will prevail in the end. Someone had to betray Christ. Someone had to give Joseph up to slavery, so that he'd end up in Egypt and become a great aid to Pharaoh, helping millions live during a famine. Someone had to be sick and lame and blind for Jesus to heal so people would know He is God.

How can we know what's good, unless we've seen what's bad? Those who are saved by the mercy of God will glorify God in the day they see the judgement of all who are wicked.

Z Man · Aug 15, 2005

RightIdea said:
Z-Man, you certainly must live a closeted life. I can't believe you are unaware that people in this world rape babies. Are you literally that sheltered???

You want to know? Do you? I have seen pictures of such abominable acts. I will not say how I did (NO, I have never been into that kind of thing!) but I have! I have personally seen it. Now, I don't expect you to have seen such horrific abominations... but for criminy sake, it's in the news periodically! Because of the AIDS epidemic in Africa, many third-world countries there with relatively aboriginal cultures have created urban legends that an AIDS victim can cure himself by having sex with a virgin. And so, because even young teen girls may have already had sex, many of these depraved men are going out and raping babies in a ludicrous, insane and Satanic attempt to save their own lives, because a baby is guaranteed to be a virgin! Some are even gang raped by a half dozen men or more in one event!!! You think we're making this up? Are you calling us liars?

Feast your ignorant eyes on this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1703595.stm

http://www.aegis.com/news/upi/2001/UP011106.html

For goodness' sake, just Google it! By doing a search on "rape babies Africa AIDS" ... I got over half a million hits! I didn't search through every page of results, but on page 19, I was still finding stories about infant rape in Africa. What does that tell you?

It tells you that you don't know what the crap you're talking about.

Thanks for the news flash. But I can tell you, it doesn't change a thing.

CRASH · Aug 16, 2005

RightIdea said:
Z-Man, you certainly must live a closeted life. I can't believe you are unaware that people in this world rape babies. Are you literally that sheltered???

You want to know? Do you? I have seen pictures of such abominable acts. I will not say how I did (NO, I have never been into that kind of thing!) but I have! I have personally seen it. Now, I don't expect you to have seen such horrific abominations... but for criminy sake, it's in the news periodically! Because of the AIDS epidemic in Africa, many third-world countries there with relatively aboriginal cultures have created urban legends that an AIDS victim can cure himself by having sex with a virgin. And so, because even young teen girls may have already had sex, many of these depraved men are going out and raping babies in a ludicrous, insane and Satanic attempt to save their own lives, because a baby is guaranteed to be a virgin! Some are even gang raped by a half dozen men or more in one event!!! You think we're making this up? Are you calling us liars?

Feast your ignorant eyes on this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1703595.stm

http://www.aegis.com/news/upi/2001/UP011106.html

For goodness' sake, just Google it! By doing a search on "rape babies Africa AIDS" ... I got over half a million hits! I didn't search through every page of results, but on page 19, I was still finding stories about infant rape in Africa. What does that tell you?

It tells you that you don't know what the crap you're talking about.

And:

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/?041206ta_talk_radosh

Z Man · Aug 16, 2005

Shadowx said:
Zman: "What post? I'm sorry I missed it."

Zman, post #566, but don't respond to it for now, unless of course it has been predestined..

I'm going to merge the parts of that post that I don't think you hare addressed and add them to my response to your post #629, sometime tommorrow.

Roger doger. I'll be waiting. Don't make it too hard, ok?

RightIdea · Aug 16, 2005

Z Man said:
Thanks for the news flash. But I can tell you, it doesn't change a thing.

Oh really? That's why you fought against it so vociferously? Because it makes no difference? Sure coulda fooled me.

Deep down, you instinctively know how wrong it is... to claim that God foreordained such things for His greater glory. How can you sit there so smugly and accuse God of such depraved madness? It makes me feel ill. You can't even admit when you made a mistake, for goodness' sake. We all do it! Be a man! After all, "man" is in your name! If you can't own up to something as obvious as this, you don't deserve to even have that word in your name, here.

This crossword has me stumped. Nine Across -- 7 letters, another word for "donkey," starts with a J. Gosh... would could it be...? :think:

Z Man · Aug 16, 2005

RightIdea said:
Oh really? That's why you fought against it so vociferously? Because it makes no difference? Sure coulda fooled me.

I just simply wanted to know of a case in which a baby was ever raped. I've never heard of such a thing. But you guys educated me. Thanks.

Deep down, you instinctively know how wrong it is... to claim that God foreordained such things for His greater glory. How can you sit there so smugly and accuse God of such depraved madness?

I've never said God raped babies. You have built that strawman on your own.

RightIdea · Aug 16, 2005

Now you must resort to lying about people's posts that you yourself are quoting? We certainly don't have to go far to see the proof of your dishonesty.

You believe God foreordained everything, do you not? Don't tell us that you're a "sleeper" Arminian like E4E turned out to be. LOL

So, if you believe God foreordained that thousands of men would rape thousands of baby girls... then be a man and say so. Step up to the plate, muchacho. If you can't even do that, I have no respect for ya.

BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3)

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