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Thread: The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)

  1. #76
    Resident Atheist Zakath's Avatar
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    Originally posted by shima
    To christians, there are people and there is God. People are insignificant compared to God,so only God is important to them. All other things are not. To atheists, all there is is people. Therefore, people are IMPORTANT.
    Succinctly stated, Shima.

  2. #77
    Journeyman temple2006's Avatar
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    But Zak, Lack of evidence is not evidence anymore than my lack of proof positive that an afterlife exists. I suspect that atheists live happy productive lives, but so do I. I enjoy my life so much that I want it to continue and continue and continue. I sense an immense longing in myself. I do not fear death because for me dying is being born into another dimension just as emerging from my mother's womb I was born into a very different dimension, a world of light that my senses could and did experience. I use the preceeding as a metaphor. The poet, Gibran says, what is dying but standing in the wind and melting into the sun.

  3. #78
    Resident Atheist Zakath's Avatar
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    Originally posted by temple 2000
    But Zak, Lack of evidence is not evidence anymore than my lack of proof positive that an afterlife exists.
    Truly said. Lack of evidence is just that - NO EVIDENCE!

    Without evidence, all that's left is to either say that something doesn't exist or to fill the perceived void with comforting fantasies...

    I suspect that atheists live happy productive lives, but so do I.
    I should hope so. Religionists continually claim that embracing their particular set of beliefs will provide happiness and productivity.

    I enjoy my life so much that I want it to continue and continue and continue. I sense an immense longing in myself.
    "Wanting don't make it so." (See "NO EVIDENCE" above).

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    Over 1000 post club Z Man's Avatar
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    Originally posted by shima
    However, to you all goals other than God are not worhty. And this mindset has caused great problems in this world, because all other things are NOT important. So, solving world hunger is NOT important, peace is NOT important, the environment is not important.
    You got it backwards: To love God and put your hope in Him gives one a greater understanding of the world around them. Everything becomes important to that individual, especially the things that involve charity. But a life without God is meaningless, and hopeless. All the things you may accomplish in life amounts to nothing in the end. NOTHING!

    Life has no purpose
    Unless it's Yours
    Life without You has no goal
    All that fulfills me
    Is doing Your Will
    Knowing that You're in control

    All That I Am
    Insyderz
    Question what you believe in, and then you'll know.

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    >>You got it backwards: To love God and put your hope in Him gives one a greater understanding of the world around them. <<

    No, it doesn't. It gives them a DIFFERENT understanding, sure, but not nessecarily a better one. Ofcourse, you think its better but that is mainly because you cannot see the difference between belief and knowledge.

    >>Everything becomes important to that individual, especially the things that involve charity. <<

    Really? That is certainly not the attitiude of most christians.

    >>But a life without God is meaningless, and hopeless. All the things you may accomplish in life amounts to nothing in the end. NOTHING!<<

    Once again: helping others isn't nothing, a cure for cancer isn't nothing, and love isn't nothing. Life isn't meaningless TO ME, and life isn't HOPELESS to me. In the end, that is all that matters.

    But what about you: striving for a "perfect" morality you know you canot attain because the only person who could was God himself. Seems pretty hopeless to me.

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Originally posted by temple 2000
    Zak...I have seen bodies cease to function and rigor mortis set in. Do you think I have led such a protected, sheltered life? BUT, prove to me that there is no afterlife and I will stop hoping but I will not stop 'living' as I do not DO THINGS in the hope of getting some gold stars or something. Gimme a break, man.
    Zakath continues to believe he alone has experienced life in the fullest. How wrong he is.

    Zakath, I have lived in war zones of third world nations. I have seen the extreme suffering & death. Until you have witnessed the extreme evil & injustice I have witnessed firsthand, it might be best to keep thy mouth shut.
    Jesus Loves You

  7. #82
    Resident Atheist Zakath's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Freak
    Zakath continues to believe he alone has experienced life in the fullest. How wrong he is.
    Hardly. I'll leave all such absolutes to you religionists...

    Zakath, I have lived in war zones of third world nations. I have seen the extreme suffering & death.
    So what, Jay? My point was that many, many Americans, particularly the younger set, have never had first hand experience of being present at the death of a human being.

    Many of us have spent time in the third world. We just don't wear it on our sleeves and brag about it. Some professionals aren't even allowed to discuss what they've seen due to the nature of their "business".
    Until you have witnessed the extreme evil & injustice I have witnessed firsthand, it might be best to keep thy mouth shut.
    You don't know me personally, so you have no idea what I've seen or witnessed unless I post things here. Why do my little ramblings perturb you so much? Is doubt and unbelief cutting into your book profits or the bookings for your speaking engagements?

    I find it amusing that someone who is allegedly backed by the ultimate power in the universe is afraid of a little competition in the marketplace of ideas. Even your religion is reliant on simple market psychology, Jay. If your ideas and teachings really are perceived of as valuable and superior by those you sell them to then they will win out. If not, they won't.

  8. #83
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Zakath, thanks for the sermonette. Why did you ever leave the pastorate?

    You said: I find it amusing that someone who is allegedly backed by the ultimate power in the universe is afraid of a little competition in the marketplace of ideas. Even your religion is reliant on simple market psychology, Jay. If your ideas and teachings really are perceived of as valuable and superior by those you sell them to then they will win out. If not, they won't.

    Yes, my ideas which are based on the Scriptures are superior to those you hold. This is a fact.

    2,000 years of the growth of the Body of Christ prove my ideas are victorious.
    Jesus Loves You

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    Resident Atheist Zakath's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Freak
    Zakath, thanks for the sermonette. Why did you ever leave the pastorate?
    Because my conscience wouldn't let me continue to make money off of preaching falsehood.

    Yes, my ideas which are based on the Scriptures are superior to those you hold. This is a fact.
    Only if you consider a "fact" to be something you believe but cannot prove. I would consider such asubjective opinion, not a fact.

    2,000 years of the growth of the Body of Christ prove my ideas are victorious.
    Growth? Have you looked at things over the last fifty years?

    Of course, depending entirely on how one defines "Christian", there are less than 1/6th of the world professing adherence to that religion. Islam has done just almost that well in about 2/3rds the time. Look at the growth statistics and get your head out of the sand. Unless something changes radically in the next 20 years, Christians are likely to be second place to the Muslims.

    BTW, if you want to see interesting growth rates, look at the growth of those claiming no religious belief in Europe and the U.S. during the last twenty years...

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Zakath, the truth is truth. Truth is not falsehood. You cannot prove otherwise. You cannot make 2+22=56. It is always true to state 2+22=24. Something you can change. Jesus is the truth. You cannot change it even with your dislike for Jesus (who by the way loves you).

    I know this is hard for you to grasp but keep on trying.
    Jesus Loves You

  11. #86
    Resident Atheist Zakath's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Freak
    Zakath, the truth is truth. Truth is not falsehood.
    But what you claim to be "truth" is based on your subjective belief, not empirial evidence, Jay. Thus it is your opinion, not verifiable truth.

    It's America so everyone's entitled to express their opinion, but don't expect everyone to believe it because you or your religious book says it's so.

    I know this is hard for you to grasp, but keep trying.

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    Rookie itsjustdave1988's Avatar
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    Zakath,

    Ever been in love? Could you prove it?

    God bless,
    Dave

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    Rookie itsjustdave1988's Avatar
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    Zakath,

    Also, I'm wondering what led you from Christianity to atheism.

    God bless,
    Dave

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Originally posted by itsjustdave1988
    Zakath,

    Also, I'm wondering what led you from Christianity to atheism.

    God bless,
    Zakath has made it clear. He stated a few posts ago why he left ministry for atheism:

    Because my conscience wouldn't let me continue to make money off of preaching falsehood.
    Jesus Loves You

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    Rookie itsjustdave1988's Avatar
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    Well, I'm sure there are many factors for rejecting Theism. I would expect the main factor would be an underlying personal experience (negative), just as often the case for accepting theism (positive). Pure rationalism rarely brings about much conviction.

    I for one don't see many proofs, by the strict sense of the word, for either atheism or theism. However, I've come to accept theism, not because of proofs, but due to many converging clues.

    I'm an engineer and a military member. I look at things methodically and, although I never have complete information, I'm often called upon to decide a course of action with incomplete yet trustworthy evidence. Wavering in indecision rarely allows you to advance in any endeavor. Thus, I've decided for theism. Have I taken the wrong road? I dunno. I don't think so. I believe the converging clues support the road I've chosen.

    The goal of Religion, I believe, is "the attempt of man, conscious of his helplessness, to unite himself with the powers which do actually dominate." (R. B. Perry, "Religion. An Introduction"). So, given this definition, it seems far better to me to be religious rather than irreligious. Atheism seems a relatively new and novel idea of man compared to all the ideas of history. What are the odds that this new path is correct? What happens if I take a chance on theism and I'm incorrect? Do I face a different fate than the atheists in the end? On the other hand, what happens if I choose atheism and I'm incorrect? What a blunder that would be!

    I like this article with regard to understanding the "heretical imperative"* of choosing either to be religious or not:

    Religion. An Introduction - Lectures on the Harvard Classics (1909-1914) by R.B. Perry (http://www.bartleby.com/60/221.html)

    *From the title of a book by Sociologist Peter Berger. He uses the original root meaning of the word "heretical", that is "to choose." I recommend his book to all atheists and theists, although, it's not an easy reader, as he's a sociologist, who by nature do not write simply.

    God bless,
    Last edited by itsjustdave1988; March 29th, 2003 at 02:45 PM.
    Dave

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