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Thread: The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)

  1. #46
    Super Moderator Jefferson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Neophyte


    What?! Heaven is like being on LSD????? Think bigger than drug-induced mania.
    That's not what I'm saying. LSD (that is, real LSD, not the garbage today that is called LSD) increases a peson's I.Q. Back in the 60's and 70's double blind studies were conducted on LSD. Subjects were given an I.Q. test before taking LSD. After taking LSD, the subjects were given another I.Q. test and the results showed that their scores rose significantly.

    But today the I.Q. scores decrease. I don't know what's in the junk today that people are claiming to be LSD but it's obviously not the real thing. Real LSD hasn't existed for at least 20 years.

    My point is that, with redeemed minds in heaven, I imagine our I.Q.'s are going to be tremendous. I can't wait. This has nothing to do with halucinating (which by the way is the most boring part of real LSD).
    Last edited by Jefferson; March 19th, 2003 at 08:01 PM.
    WARNING: Graphic video here.

  2. #47
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jefferson
    That's not what I'm saying. LSD (that is, real LSD, not the garbage today that is called LSD) increases a peson's I.Q. Back in the 60's and 70's double blind studies were conducted on LSD. Subjects were given an I.Q. test before taking LSD. After taking LSD, the subjects were given another I.Q. test and the results showed that their scores rose significantly.

    But today the I.Q. scores decrease. I don't know what's in the junk today that people are claiming to be LSD but it's obviously not the real thing. Real LSD hasn't existed for at least 20 years.

    My point is that, with redeemed minds in heaven, I imagine our I.Q.'s are going to be tremendous. I can't wait. This has nothing to do with halucinating (which by the way is the most boring part of real LSD).
    I get your point Jefferson but I don't think this is a great path to take in describing what Heaven will be like.
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  3. #48
    Super Moderator Jefferson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Knight
    I get your point Jefferson but I don't think this is a great path to take in describing what Heaven will be like.
    I agree in that our raised I.Q.'s will be a very minor thrill compared to seeing Him, knowing Him fully, and being like Him in holiness. Our glorified bodies (and minds) will be nice but that won't be what heaven is all about.
    WARNING: Graphic video here.

  4. #49
    Over 750 post club Flipper's Avatar
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    Jefferson Airplane?

    Jefferson and Knight wrote:

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Jefferson
    That's not what I'm saying. LSD (that is, real LSD, not the garbage today that is called LSD) increases a peson's I.Q. Back in the 60's and 70's double blind studies were conducted on LSD. Subjects were given an I.Q. test before taking LSD. After taking LSD, the subjects were given another I.Q. test and the results showed that their scores rose significantly.

    But today the I.Q. scores decrease. I don't know what's in the junk today that people are claiming to be LSD but it's obviously not the real thing. Real LSD hasn't existed for at least 20 years.

    My point is that, with redeemed minds in heaven, I imagine our I.Q.'s are going to be tremendous. I can't wait. This has nothing to do with halucinating (which by the way is the most boring part of real LSD).
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I get your point Jefferson but I don't think this is a great path to take in describing what Heaven will be like.
    _________________
    Probably not. But this certainly explains quite a lot.

    Jefferson, do you have any evidence for this idea that LSD used to increase IQ points, or was it all suppressed by the government?

    My guess is that the evidence of the IQ-extending potential of LSD in the 1960s is similar to that of a personal experience with Jesus. It's all in your head, dude.

    It was also said of that acid in the 1960s that it could make you think you could fly. Apparently, it also made other people think they were clever.

    I'm also fascinated to know more about the evolution from a trip-droppin' acidhead to a hardnosed conspiracy-theorist rightwinger. How did this happen? Did a blue-skinned, six-armed Nixon come to you in a dream?

  5. #50
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    >>I'm also fascinated to know more about the evolution from a trip-droppin' acidhead to a hardnosed conspiracy-theorist rightwinger. How did this happen? Did a blue-skinned, six-armed Nixon come to you in a dream?<<

    Haha.

    LSD does have a slight problem: it remains in the body for about 20 years. The sister of a friend of mine used it twice, and after 6 years she STILL occasionally has a "bad" flashback when the LSD starts acting up again.

    LSD is not for me. However, I did have some very "nice" (in the meaning of: insightfull) trips on Magic Mushrooms.

  6. #51
    Resident Atheist Zakath's Avatar
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    Unhappy Very enlightening, Jefferson.

    The claims of a link between LSD use and raised IQ appear to be based on a case study conference presentation in the 1960's by Albert Kurland (Maryland Psychiatric Research Center - 1967) about a low IQ alcoholic patient who, after being dosed with LSD, responded to psychotherapy and underwent a religious conversion. Kurland thought this was noteworthy since psychotherapy traditionally does not work well on low IQ patients.

    All the reports I found were anecdotal (i.e. single patient cases). I could not find any references to formal studies relating IQ changes to LSD use.

    There does appear to be significant research indicating that LSD breaks down ego boundaries (the portion of the mental structure that seperates an individual from the rest of the perceived universe). Thus users are more likely than the non-using population to respond to religious coercion and "convert" to one religion or another. A mental health professional might question whether his "commitment to Christ" and apparent devotion to the type of religion Enyart espouses is merely another delayed manifestation of Jefferson's former drug use.

    LSD use is also linked to some, shall we say, unusual changes in perception. That might shed a bit of insight on Jefferson's prediliction for insisting on using pictures of corpses and bloody body parts in his postings here and elsewhere.

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    Thank you, Zakath...as always a well-reasoned and informed response.

    I find Jefferson's reply to my question absurd. It speaks for itself.

  8. #53
    Resident Atheist Zakath's Avatar
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    Thanks Neo. My pleasure.

    Jefferson is..., well, he's just Jefferson!

  9. #54
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    I'm not going to argue for or against atheism. I'm agnostic, i truely beleive that we just don't know. There's no way to prove the argument either way so what's the point in argueing over something that no one has the answer to? Sure, many will act like they know all the answers, but what if all we thought was true is wrong? Are even asking the right questions?

    "Let me be the first to say
    that I don't have all the answers
    I don't have a clue
    ain't going to pretend like I do
    Just trying to find my way
    the best I know how." lifehouse


    on a side note- jefferson- what is that a picture of? i'm afraid i don't want to know, are you trying to make a statement or something?

  10. #55
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    >>There's no way to prove the argument either way so what's the point in argueing over something that no one has the answer to?<<

    Because argueing over your preferred oint of view brings you into contact with other peoples point of view. Thus, you might change your mind about what is the "correct" awnser because you are hearing new arguements.

    >>Sure, many will act like they know all the answers, but what if all we thought was true is wrong? <<

    Its very possible. Perhaps the Omnipotent Invisble Pink Unicorn IS real, and He doesn't like me making fun of him. I'd be in BIG trouble if he did exist.

    No one has all the awnsers, because we as human beings are very limited in knowledge and learning. We cannot at present gather all information that this Universe has to offer and we cannot make all the connections between that information that is required for a "correct" awnser to the question. Even then, the qustion:"Do we know all that there is to know?" is not awnserable by a simple "yes" or "no" even in the case that we may have a HUGE amount of information.

    >>I don't have a clue ain't going to pretend like I do<<

    Quite true, but people cannot live without awnsers to questions. Its BECAUSE we know that some awnsers are "true" that we can function at all. You can walk because your body "knows" how gravity works. If gravity changes, your body has a hard time addapting. You can "learn" because your brain "remembers" what the awnsers to certain questions was. If you cannot remember, you cannot learn and you will therefore always be stuck in the "baby" phase.

    I've had some experience with Magic Mushrooms, and one trip involved me loosing what I was learned by society. It involved things like knowing what "1+1" was, or the capitals of Europe, etc. It also involved me not remembering how things worked, and who people were and what they were like. I also couldn't remember why I thought they were important. Friends became just as important as anything else. And I coulnd't remember the concept of "time" untill my friend explained it to me. And it was scary, because I realised that, if my memory didn't come back, I'd have lost EVERYTHING from the past 25 years. And that includes my identity.

    Identity involves making choises. You might regret some of them (like me) and you want to celebrate some as the most important "correct" choise you have ever done (but won't realise it untill later). Those "choises" are YOU. Just like the subjects YOU hold to be important are a part of your identity. And ofcourse, what you want to do in life is ALSO a part of you.

    Your belief is also part of your identity, and most people will not like it if that belief is disproven. Better to close your eyes to all the evidence rather than admitting you were wrong. A friend of mine converted from Christian to Atheism after two bad years. She was actually HAPPY after that, because she could accept being responsible for things herself, but she just coulcn't accept that God had it in for her.

    Society has some awnsers to "What is life all about?", but they are frequently only the awnsers that will improve society and make it function. Anyone who holds different ideals will find that society doesn't really like them. Society want people to work, marry, procreate and become useless after giving 40 years of your life to a job you didn't like.

    Not for me. I'll go out and find my OWN awnsers. "You are NOT a beautifull snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as the rest of the world." So, start by accepting that one day you are going to die, then start wondering what to do with the time you have remaining.

    Since you cannot predict WHEN you are going to die, the FUTURE is just as important as the NOW. If you are living only for the future ("In 20 years, I'll retire and THEN I'll enjoy life") you will find that you have wasted the better part of your life looking ahead, instead of looking ahead AND at the present. Enjoying life NOW is just as important as enjoying life 5 years from now.

    So, what do you want to do with your life?

  11. #56
    Over 1000 post club Z Man's Avatar
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    I know I'm a little late in this thread, sorry, but I'd like to throw my 2 cents in...

    Originally posted by Freak
    Temporary meaning in life is insufficient, for our accomplishments die with the death of the universe -- there is no ultimate purpose in a universe void of God.
    Then Zakath responded, saying:

    Originally posted by Zakath
    Au contrairč Jay, since, as nearly as anyone can prove, consciousness ceases to exist after death, the meaning we extract from our lives is as permanent as meaning can be. Once we're done, we're done. A thousand years from now, all your pontification on TOL (and mine as well) will be forgotten. What we do here, we do for entertainment, not for any eternal purpose...
    Then what would our hope in this life be, Zakath? Why should people look for various ways to cure sicknesses, or implament laws to protect our lives? According to your way of thinking, the only thing we live for in this life is entertainment. That means the media is what makes us; deceides what our lives will be like. Being saturated in TV, movies, video games, clubs and bars, alcohol, drugs, sex, pleasure, and entertainment as a whole is the way Atheist's escape from the reality of their hopelessness. The very thing we like and take pleasure in is the very thing that destroy's us in the end, yet we create more of it for the next generation. It's a never ending cycle of death. There is nothing new under the sun. This hope of pleasure from the media that the Atheists worship is the very thing that masks them from the hope of being set free from it. They are tuned out from the reality of the eternal realm, like mice following the Piper...

    Don't bother me with details,
    Don't bore me with what's real.
    Distractions all I need, all I need, all I need to
    Shelter me, sweet escape.
    I'm looking for a place to run to.
    Shelter me, sweet escape.
    I'm looking for a place to hide inside...

    Shelter Me, Mercury
    Truthless Heroes
    Project 86
    Question what you believe in, and then you'll know.

  12. #57
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    >>Why should people look for various ways to cure sicknesses, or implament laws to protect our lives? According to your way of thinking, the only thing we live for in this life is entertainment. That means the media is what makes us; deceides what our lives will be like. Being saturated in TV, movies, video games, clubs and bars, alcohol, drugs, sex, pleasure, and entertainment as a whole is the way Atheist's escape from the reality of their hopelessness. <<

    Nope. Most atheists happen to set their own goals in life. Discovering a cure for cancer is one way of an almost infinite number of ways to spend your time.

    Entertainment is also important. Perhaps you should read my above post.

  13. #58
    Over 1000 post club Z Man's Avatar
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    Originally posted by shima
    Most atheists happen to set their own goals in life. Discovering a cure for cancer is one way of an almost infinite number of ways to spend your time.
    Whatever goals an Atheist may set in life, that becomes their entertainment/hope/God.
    Question what you believe in, and then you'll know.

  14. #59
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    >>Whatever goals an Atheist may set in life, that becomes their entertainment/hope/God.<<

    Yes? So what is the problem then? Christians choose God as their goal, atheists preferr something different. Getting a cure for cancer, a publication in Nature, going to the moon, discovering alien life.

  15. #60
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Z Man
    I know I'm a little late in this thread, sorry, but I'd like to throw my 2 cents in...



    Then Zakath responded, saying:



    Then what would our hope in this life be, Zakath? Why should people look for various ways to cure sicknesses, or implament laws to protect our lives? According to your way of thinking, the only thing we live for in this life is entertainment. That means the media is what makes us; deceides what our lives will be like. Being saturated in TV, movies, video games, clubs and bars, alcohol, drugs, sex, pleasure, and entertainment as a whole is the way Atheist's escape from the reality of their hopelessness. The very thing we like and take pleasure in is the very thing that destroy's us in the end, yet we create more of it for the next generation. It's a never ending cycle of death. There is nothing new under the sun. This hope of pleasure from the media that the Atheists worship is the very thing that masks them from the hope of being set free from it. They are tuned out from the reality of the eternal realm, like mice following the Piper...

    Don't bother me with details,
    Don't bore me with what's real.
    Distractions all I need, all I need, all I need to
    Shelter me, sweet escape.
    I'm looking for a place to run to.
    Shelter me, sweet escape.
    I'm looking for a place to hide inside...

    Shelter Me, Mercury
    Truthless Heroes
    Project 86
    Zakath's atheism fails once again to provide real answers to real issues.
    Jesus Loves You

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