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Thread: The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)

    I came upon recently a very interesting article entitled: Theism vs Atheism. Read for yourself: http://www.biblicaldefense.org/Resea...es/debate7.htm

    As you can see the problems the atheist faces is present and clear.

    This part was so true:

    Atheism also fails to adequately explain the existence of eternal, unchanging truths, for it rejects the existence of an eternal unchanging Mind. Atheism cannot offer man any eternal significance. Temporary meaning in life is insufficient, for our accomplishments die with the death of the universe -- there is no ultimate purpose in a universe void of God.
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    Resident Fiend Gerald's Avatar
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    Re: The Ever Present Problem of Atheism

    Originally posted by Freak
    I came upon recently a very interesting article entitled: Theism vs Atheism. Read for yourself: http://www.biblicaldefense.org/Resea...es/debate7.htm

    As you can see the problems the atheist faces is present and clear.

    This part was so true:

    Atheism also fails to adequately explain the existence of eternal, unchanging truths, for it rejects the existence of an eternal unchanging Mind. Atheism cannot offer man any eternal significance. Temporary meaning in life is insufficient, for our accomplishments die with the death of the universe -- there is no ultimate purpose in a universe void of God.
    And this is bad how?

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    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
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    Re: Re: The Ever Present Problem of Atheism

    Originally posted by Gerald

    And this is bad how?
    Because it doesn't match what is self evident.
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    Resident Atheist Zakath's Avatar
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    Perhaps the greatest single problem we atheists have is getting religionists to read more than a few lines at a time.

    The link you provide is not an "article", Jay. It is one of eight separate files that make up a debate between and atheist and a theist on that Web site.

    I think that Dr. Martin's final statement sums up his points very adequately:
    In his conclusion Dr. Fernandes boasts of the explanatory power of theism over atheism. However, theistic explanations of the problem of evil and of the existence of hundreds of millions of nonbelievers are problematic. Atheism has no such problems. Moreover, a theory such that is inconsistent and lacks rational support, such as theism, can hardly have great explanatory power. As I have shown, atheism is a consistent and a rationally supported position.
    Unless you read the rest of the debate, the conclusions make little sense.

    Perhaps you would like to tackle the "problem of evil" or the existence of hundres of millions of nonbelievers throughout human history?

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Zakath
    Perhaps the greatest single problem we atheists have is getting religionists to read more than a few lines at a time.

    The link you provide is not an "article", Jay. It is one of eight separate files that make up a debate between and atheist and a theist on that Web site.

    I think that Dr. Martin's final statement sums up his points very adequately:


    Unless you read the rest of the debate, the conclusions make little sense.

    Perhaps you would like to tackle the "problem of evil" or the existence of hundres of millions of nonbelievers throughout human history?
    So, Zakath:

    Atheism also fails to adequately explain the existence of eternal, unchanging truths, for it rejects the existence of an eternal unchanging Mind. Atheism cannot offer man any eternal significance. Temporary meaning in life is insufficient, for our accomplishments die with the death of the universe -- there is no ultimate purpose in a universe void of God.

    Atheism fails miserably in providing any kind of eternal significance...Christianity provides hope after death. Zakath, a breath away you are....then what....you might simply dismiss death...but it is a reality that all humans must face...
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    Resident Atheist Zakath's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Freak
    Atheism also fails to adequately explain the existence of eternal, unchanging truths, for it rejects the existence of an eternal unchanging Mind.
    Provide three examples of eternal, unchanging truths and explain how you can be absolutely certain they are eternal.

    Atheism cannot offer man any eternal significance.
    It does not seek to do so. Most atheists of my acquaintance are humanists, they do not seek "eternal significance."

    Temporary meaning in life is insufficient, for our accomplishments die with the death of the universe -- there is no ultimate purpose in a universe void of God.
    Au contrairč Jay, since, as nearly as anyone can prove, consciousness ceases to exist after death, the meaning we extract from our lives is as permanent as meaning can be. Once we're done, we're done. A thousand years from now, all your pontification on TOL (and mine as well) will be forgotten. What we do here, we do for entertainment, not for any eternal purpose...

    Christianity provides hope after death. Zakath, a breath away you are....then what....you might simply dismiss death...but it is a reality that all humans must face...
    Finally, we agree, even you will face and be overcome by death one day, Jay. One day you'll see that I'm right. But I can wait. Death comes for all humans, even religionists like you. Neither your deity or your faith will save you from "the long dirt nap"...

    Death is a fact of existence here, Jay. You can fear it like a religionist or face it squarely like an atheist. But you cannot avoid it.

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    Resident Fiend Gerald's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: The Ever Present Problem of Atheism

    Originally posted by Knight
    Because it doesn't match what is self evident.
    And it is self-evident is that there exists an invisible, immaterial, volitional being who regularly interacts with the material world?

    I'd like to see you demonstrate that. I really would.

    Let me ask you what I asked Mustard Seed, to wit:

    I get this very same sentiment from people who believe in psychic powers, ghosts, flying saucers, and all the other paranormal booshwah. Am I being closed-minded when I dismiss their claims? Yes or no?

    And to repeat an earlier post, if I trip on the rug, is it because I wasn't watching my step, or is it because invisible, immaterial gremlins made me trip, wrinkled the rug just so I would stumble over it? Is it closed-minded for me to not give equal weight to both possibilities? Yes or no?

    Evidence for gravity is ubiquitous and impossible to ignore. Do you dispute this? Yes or no? I don't need to go seeking evidence for gravity. All I need to do is...trip on the rug.

    Now, if evidence for the supernatural is as ubiquitous as you appear to be claiming, why do I have to be looking to change how I live or what I am to discover it? Why must I jump through hoops for the supernatural but not for gravity?


    He never answered. Care to give it a go?

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    Resident Atheist Zakath's Avatar
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    This should be interesting to watch... Not enlightening, but interesting.

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    Time to wake up from your nap...

    Zakath you asked: Provide three examples of eternal, unchanging truths and explain how you can be absolutely certain they are eternal.

    Love, goodness, and Jesus are all three examples of "eternal, unchanging truths" that you are looking for.

    *Since God is love therefore love is eternal for God is eternal.
    *God is good therefore goodness is eternal since God is eternal (His attributes never change).
    *Jesus is the truth and we know Jesus is God so Jesus is eternal.

    How can we be absolutely sure they are eternal? The answer is because the Holy Scriptures declare it. I know you are a atheist that denies the inerrancy of Scripture. But that is your problem not mine because there is ample evidence to believe the Scriptures are divine in origin. That is why we can say these are eternal, unchanging truths....
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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    As the debate clearly shows the atheist could not provide any information that debunks the belief in God.

    In conclusion, Dr. Martin has presented no persuasive arguments as to why one should expect absolute moral values, eternal and unchanging truths, the beginning of the universe, the universe's continuing existence, the design and order in the universe, ultimate meaning in life, the sanctity of human life, the possibility of human knowledge, and the ultimate defeat of evil in a universe without God.

    He goes on:

    I have shown that these aspects of human experience are predicted by the theistic hypothesis. Martin's alternatives to my arguments are highly speculative, extremely improbable, and very unconvincing. It is apparent that he is willing to entertain absurdities (such as the universe evolving into existence from nothing, an infinite number of unverifiable universes, the rejection of eternal and unchanging prescriptive moral laws, etc.) in order to escape the conclusion that the theistic God does exist. In short, Martin fails to explain why atheism is a superior hypothesis to that of theism. He is willing to attack theism, but does not even attempt to show that atheism offers a better explanation for the nine aspects of human experience I discussed in my opening statement. Martin unsuccessfully attacks the explanatory power of theism while failing to show that atheism has any explanatory power.6 My thesis remains intact. It is more reasonable to be a theist than it is to be an atheist.
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    Journeyman shilohproject's Avatar
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    Re: Time to wake up from your nap...

    Originally posted by Freak

    Love, goodness, and Jesus are all three examples of "eternal, unchanging truths" that you are looking for.

    *Since God is love therefore love is eternal for God is eternal.
    *God is good therefore goodness is eternal since God is eternal (His attributes never change).
    *Jesus is the truth and we know Jesus is God so Jesus is eternal.

    How can we be absolutely sure they are eternal? The answer is because the Holy Scriptures declare it. I know you are a atheist that denies the inerrancy of Scripture. But that is your problem not mine because there is ample evidence to believe the Scriptures are divine in origin. That is why we can say these are eternal, unchanging truths....
    Freak,

    One must be careful here to not confuse belief with proof.

    I happen to agree with you on these three points (love, goodness & Jesus), but I am absolutely certain that it is a matter of faith and definition. There is no proof in these assertions, e.g. goodness and love exist outside the Christian world, too.
    -Shiloh
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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Time to wake up from your nap...

    Originally posted by shilohproject


    Freak,

    One must be careful here to not confuse belief with proof.

    I happen to agree with you on these three points (love, goodness & Jesus), but I am absolutely certain that it is a matter of faith and definition. There is no proof in these assertions, e.g. goodness and love exist outside the Christian world, too.
    I have reasonable faith though. Not a blind faith. Big difference that you should see I would think.
    Jesus Loves You

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    Over 750 post club Flipper's Avatar
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    zakath wrote:

    This should be interesting to watch... Not enlightening, but interesting.
    Really? I just have a weary sense of resignation. How many times can the same things be said in not-very-different ways? How many times will, after a few months of injured silence, will exactly the same points be represented in a slightly different shade of mauve as if they were interesting new arguments? Do some Christians timeshare their memories with goldfish?

    Is that what will prevent heaven from becoming boring over eternity? ("hello! Look at that! A rock! How interesting!".... (7 seconds pass)... "What's that? It looks like a rock! Wow!")

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    Talking

    [Do some Christians timeshare their memories with goldfish?

    Is that what will prevent heaven from becoming boring over eternity? ("hello! Look at that! A rock! How interesting!".... (7 seconds pass)... "What's that? It looks like a rock! Wow!")
    ROFL!!!!!

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    Originally posted by Flipper
    Is that what will prevent heaven from becoming boring over eternity? ("hello! Look at that! A rock! How interesting!".... (7 seconds pass)... "What's that? It looks like a rock! Wow!")
    If you have ever taken LSD (20 years or so ago when LSD actually existed) you can only imagine how fascinating life will be with (not just a redeemed body) but also a redeemed mind. I can't wait.
    WARNING: Graphic video here.

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