ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

godrulz said:

Open Theism correctly recognizes two motifs in Scripture: some of the future is predestined and some of the future is open/unsettled. You proof text the former and extrapolate this to exclude the latter. The only way to retain your preconceived ideas is to make the latter verses figurative. Open Theism takes them at face value without contradiction.

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No, that's the way you perceive God to work. He has revealed, and I have demonstrated the voluminous Scripture support, that He predestines time and time again in Scripture. You say He doesn't predestine all things because He doesn't name every single thing. That's not support that simple-minded conjecture without biblical support. Isn't it enough He plainly reveals that He "works all things after the counsel of his own will?"

What more do you want Him to say or reveal to you? He reveals He predestines, He proves He predestines, and then He says He works all things after the counsel of his own will." What more do you want?

ISA 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
EPH 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
ROM 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Is. 46:10 is a favorite text of Open Theists. It is an example of how God does bring specific things (see the context) to pass by His ABILITY (not His foreknowledge or decrees). There is no exegetical reason to extrapolate this to mean He knows or predestines when I will brush my teeth or what I will eat and wear.

Other passages show that God's will and purposes can be resisted. Satan and evil men are classic examples of this. Rom. 8 tells us how He works all things for good: they will conform us to the character and image of Christ as believers. It does not mean that it is a good thing that Hitler killed Jews, people abort babies, people are raped and murdered, etc. God opposes evil. He does not affirm it as His will. Justice will eventually take place.

God does not will everything. What He does sovereignly will, He will ultimately bring to fruition. There are many other things outside His sovereign will that involve moral or mundane choices. He does not will every mundane choice in the universe and His moral will may be obeyed or disobeyed. We are not automatons.

godrulz said:

Is. 46:10 is a favorite text of Open Theists. It is an example of how God does bring specific things (see the context) to pass by His ABILITY (not His foreknowledge or decrees). There is no exegetical reason to extrapolate this to mean He knows or predestines when I will brush my teeth or what I will eat and wear.

Other passages show that God's will and purposes can be resisted. Satan and evil men are classic examples of this. Rom. 8 tells us how He works all things for good: they will conform us to the character and image of Christ as believers. It does not mean that it is a good thing that Hitler killed Jews, people abort babies, people are raped and murdered, etc. God opposes evil. He does not affirm it as His will. Justice will eventually take place.

God does not will everything. What He does sovereignly will, He will ultimately bring to fruition. There are many other things outside His sovereign will that involve moral or mundane choices. He does not will every mundane choice in the universe and His moral will may be obeyed or disobeyed. We are not automatons.

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Jesus and Paul taught just the opposite. Jesus taught that even the littlest things are ordained by and are the will of God, even a sparrow can not fall to the ground without it being the will of God.

MAT 10:29 "Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.

Paul taught that God works all things after the counsel of his will:

EPH 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Lets see now;

Paul says God "works all things after the counsel of his will."

godrulz says "God does not will everything."

I wonder who is right?

Mt. 10 (try another translation) merely shows that the Father is aware of the bird falling. He knows us intimately. It is a cosmic leap to think He predestines or causes this.

Eph. 1:11 requires careful exegesis. You are proof texting it beyond what it is saying. He predestines that all who believe will become part of the corporate elect. It does not mean He double predestines individuals or that He predestines every mundane and moral choice in the universe. His will is to have a people for Himself. He does not have to predestine/control every molecule or event in the universe to bring His plan of redemption to completion. We are chosen corporately in Him. Whoever comes in repentant faith will become part of His people and plan. The many who reject His purposes for them will remain outside of Him and not share His purposes for them (Lk. 7:30).

It is not a matter of believing me or the Bible. It is a matter of believing your vs mine INTERPRETATION of the Bible. You wrongly assume your preconceived theology is the only possible legitimate possible view.

godrulz said:

Mt. 10 (try another translation) merely shows that the Father is aware of the bird falling. He knows us intimately. It is a cosmic leap to think He predestines or causes this.

Eph. 1:11 requires careful exegesis. You are proof texting it beyond what it is saying. He predestines that all who believe will become part of the corporate elect. It does not mean He double predestines individuals or that He predestines every mundane and moral choice in the universe. His will is to have a people for Himself. He does not have to predestine/control every molecule or event in the universe to bring His plan of redemption to completion. We are chosen corporately in Him. Whoever comes in repentant faith will become part of His people and plan. The many who reject His purposes for them will remain outside of Him and not share His purposes for them (Lk. 7:30).

It is not a matter of believing me or the Bible. It is a matter of believing your vs mine INTERPRETATION of the Bible. You wrongly assume your preconceived theology is the only possible legitimate possible view.

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C'mon godrulz, where does it say "aware of" in Mt 10:29???? Christ says a sparrow will not fall apart from the Father! You are now replacing God's own words with your words. When you do this you will always fall into error.

I don't think Eph. 1:11 requires careful exegesis. I think it means exactly what it says:

EPH 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

I think it requires careful twisting of the words to make this verse mean something other than what it plainly states and that is God works all things after the counsel of his own will....ALL THINGS!!!

If God wants to keep a bird from falling to the ground He could intervene so it does not happen. Does that mean that it is God's will for someone to rape and murder a Christian? He could intervene, but He does not always intervene. Accidents can happen due to the laws He has put in place. This does not mean He superintends every rock that slides down a cliff. Every mosquito that gets swatted is not due to God's will or causation. God numbers the hairs on our head. He knows us intimately. This does not mean His will is involved when I wash my hair down the drain or get a haircut.

Eph. 1:11 refers to God's plan of salvation and God's plan for the transition from national Israel to the Church in the general outworking of His plan of redemption. Context is king. There is no reference to a comprehensive plan for EVERY event in human history. This is your wrong assumption that sovereignty must mean meticulous control instead of providential, responsive control. God does not need to control, predestine, or decree every detail to bring about His purposes.

There is no direct Sciptural evidence for the Augustinian notion of a wall-to-wall decree or decrees of God in past eternity. Conversely, there is clear revelation of God's self-limitation of the exercise of His sovereignty. Augustinian theology is an extreme extrapolation of the biblical data. It is deductive vs inductive. Discussion about the logical or chronological order of God's decrees in eternity past is nonsense.

C. Gordon Olson: Eph. 1:11 has been grossly pulled out of its context and extrapolated to make it a reference to an all-inclusive decree(s), when the subject at hand is God's gracious plan of salvation, planned by the Father and implemented by the Son of God.

Watch your sloppy exegesis and exegetical fallacies. You are reading the verse with a wooden literalism that will contradict other verses in order to support a preconceived, Calvinistic theology. The most serious problem of an all-encompassing decree is that it makes God responsible for sin and evil, contrary to the revelation of His love and holiness. All-inclusive will/decree of God must include sin. If it is not, then the reference of Eph. 1 refers to salvation, not every detail in the universe for all time.

After the Fall, God was sorry that He made man and was grieved in His heart (Gen. 6:6). God is not the author of His own grief. Man introduced rebellion, contrary to His will. God's disposition changed in response to man's rebellion. This was not planned or decreed from the beginning. Originally, His creation was 'very good'. This was His will and plan. After the Fall, His contingent plan of redemption was implemented. The Fall was not predestined.

Eph. 1:11 interpreted as all-inclusive and exhaustive is a proof text of the outworking of God's sovereignty tht ignores the context and grammar. Christ died for all, the lost, the ungodly. Calvinists try to say that all does not mean all. 2 Cor. 5:14,15; I Tim. 2:1-6; 4:10; Tit. 2:11; Heb. 2:9; etc. Here it is used in the universal sense of all mankind. Calvinists say all means all in Eph. 1:11, but only means the elect in other contexts. There is no basis for this grammatically except to support TULIP.

Jn. 3:16 says He loved and died for the whole world. Saying He loves and dies for the elect alone is disingenuous (most uses of 'world' refer to unbelievers).

Interesting how inconsistent you must be to support your ideas. You want me to read things literally only when they agree with your ideas, but read them loosely when they contradict your ideas.

godrulz said:

If God wants to keep a bird from falling to the ground He could intervene so it does not happen. Does that mean that it is God's will for someone to rape and murder a Christian. He could intervene, but He does not always intervene. Accidents can happen due to the laws He has put in place.

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You mention some pretty heinous acts I must admit. But I'll go one up on you, do you think the extreme beating and scourging of "the Christian of Christians," His crucifixtion, His being stripped for the world to see and openly mock, and all with extreme suffering and deep humiliation was an accident? You don't actually think that was God's will do you???

godrulz said:

Eph. 1:11 refers to God's plan of salvation and God's plan for the transition from national Israel to the Church in the general outworking of His plan of redemption.

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What a bunch of baloney! It amazes me that you are literal with so many other verses when that way of interpretation fits your theology, but when it doesn't then all of sudden the verse has "a complicated allegorical sense to it" that only Open Theism can interpret.

godrulz said:

After the Fall, God was sorry that He made man and was grieved in His heart (Gen. 6:6). God is not the author of His own grief. Man introduced rebellion, contrary to His will. God's disposition changed in response to man's rebellion. This was not planned or decreed from the beginning.

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That's funny, the Apostle Peter said it was decreed from the beginning and that's why Christ "was foreordained before the foundation of the world:"

1PE 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1PE 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

So did the Apostle Paul:

EPH 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Lets see;

Apostle Peter "was foreordained before the foundation of the world"
Apostle Paul "he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world"
godrulz "This was not planned or decreed from the beginning"

Gee, once again I wonder who we should believe?

godrulz said:

Calvinists say all means all in Eph. 1:11, but only means the elect in other contexts. There is no basis for this grammatically except to support TULIP.

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The are many times "all" is used in Scripture to mean everything or everyone without exception and many times when it means all classes or types of men, some from every nation, the Gentiles etc. Context is key! In the context of this verse "all" is cleary being used to mean "everything." Your interpretation twist and word-play gymnastics only reveal your "hidden agenda" and true intent and greatly reduce your credibility.

EPH 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph. 1:3-14 is practically one long sentence in Greek. The context is the plan of redemption, not every detail relating to the universe. I am not interpreting it allegorically, but literally according to the immediate and remote context of the book. You are wrongly extrapolating from the specific context of salvation to the general idea of all things.

The crucifixion was predestined by God. His plan of redemption was implemented in Gen. 3. He is the Lamb of God who fulfills the OT shadows and types. It is another thing to say that heinous moral evil committed by free moral agents or Satan is predestined by God. Whether the cruel details of His death were predestined or not, His death was predestined, for without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins (Heb.). Just because God predestines some things, does not necessitate that He predestines all things. It should be apparent to a thinking Christian or unbeliever that God does not predestine evil. He OPPOSES it! "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Gen. 18:25

godrulz said:

The crucifixion was predestined by God. His plan of redemption was implemented in Gen. 3. He is the Lamb of God who fulfills the OT shadows and types. It is another thing to say that heinous moral evil committed by free moral agents or Satan is predestined by God. Whether the cruel details of His death were predestined or not, His death was predestined, for without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins (Heb.). Just because God predestines some things, does not necessitate that He predestines all things. It should be apparent to a thinking Christian or unbeliever that God does not predestine evil. He OPPOSES it! "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Gen. 18:25

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I gotta tell you, It just really amazes me how you keep tripping over your own words time after time godrulz. I feel like I'm in some kinda Calvinist training camp and you are responsible for teeing 'em up for me one after another so I can just keep nailing them outa the ball park. It's a real confidence builder.

God predestined Joseph to be sold in slavery by his very brothers for the good of His elect Israel:

GEN 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

GEN 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.

God predestined Christ to be taken and killed by evil men for the salvation of His elect:

ACT 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Thx for teeing 'em up again for me godrulz, I am really enjoying this. But it sure would be a lot better to see you come to the realization of these biblical truths. They'll change how you worship God once you realize how much mercy He has had on you and passed over others.

ChristisKing said:

I gotta tell you, It just really amazes me how you keep tripping over your own words time after time. I feel like I'm in some kinda Calvinist training camp and you are responsible for continuing to tee 'em up one after another for me to just keep nailing them outa the ball park.

God predestined Joseph to be sold in slavery by his very brothers for the good of His elect Israel:

GEN 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

GEN 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.

God predestined Christ to be taken and killed by evil men for the salvation of His elect:

ACT 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Thx for teeing 'em up again for me godrulz, I am really enjoying this. But it sure would be a lot better to see you come to the realization of these biblical truths. They'll change how you worship God once you realize how much mercy He has had on you and passed over others.

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God responsively and creatively worked with Joseph's circumstances to bring a greater good. He does this many times in history. This does not necessitate that He predestined these things in eternity past or directly controls every detail as He redeems situations for the good and glory. There is nothing redeeming about someone raping and murdering a baby. A specific intervention in history does not mean God controls, wills, or predestines everything in history. Quit proof texting and going beyond a specific text to make a general, universal principle.

Open Theists affirm that God predestined the plan of redemption as a possibility that we implemented when it became a necessity. It did not become actual in eternity past, but when the Messiah lived and died centuries later.

God extends His mercy to all those who hear and respond to His voice. His cross is efficacious for all who believed. He predestined that all who respond to His convincing and conviction and cease rebellion through repentant faith will be saved. He did not elect some and non-elect others in eternity past. If you think He did, you have raised a specious view of sovereignty above an explicit revelation of His love, holiness, and justice. God is not arbitrary. God is impartial and is able to save to the uttermost. If men reject Him, it is not the will of God. They alone are culpable for not appropriating His perfect provision.

BTW, Christ IS King, but this does not mean He rules robots. There are consequences for breaking the King's laws, but this does not mean that He coerces lawbreaking or does not save some that He could save if He wanted to.

godrulz said:

God responsively and creatively worked with Joseph's circumstances to bring a greater good. He does this many times in history. This does not necessitate that He predestined these things in eternity past or directly controls every detail as He redeems situations for the good and glory. There is nothing redeeming about someone raping and murdering a baby. A specific intervention in history does not mean God controls, wills, or predestines everything in history. Quit proof texting and going beyond a specific text to make a general, universal principle.

Open Theists affirm that God predestined the plan of redemption as a possibility that we implemented when it became a necessity. It did not become actual in eternity past, but when the Messiah lived and died centuries later.

God extends His mercy to all those who hear and respond to His voice. His cross is efficacious for all who believed. He predestined that all who respond to His convincing and conviction and cease rebellion through repentant faith will be saved. He did not elect some and non-elect others in eternity past. If you think He did, you have raised a specious view of sovereignty above an explicit revelation of His love, holiness, and justice. God is not arbitrary. God is impartial and is able to save to the uttermost. If men reject Him, it is not the will of God. They alone are culpable for not appropriating His perfect provision.

BTW, Christ IS King, but this does not mean He rules robots. There are consequences for breaking the King's laws, but this does not mean that He coerces lawbreaking or does not save some that He could save if He wanted to.

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That's a nice story, too bad none of it is in the bible. :chuckle:

ChristisKing said:

That's a nice story, too bad none of it is in the bible. :chuckle:

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You are a tough nut to crack. Perhaps respond to the inferences/principles since many ideas are not systematically explicit in proof texts.

Gentlemen, I believe it is important to see where the Calvinistic material is coming from. As I read Augustine and those who bought into his philosophy, I think it is clear where Augustinian and then, Calvinism, came from.

The foundation of the Calvinistic view of predestination is immutability. Is God immutable? Is He impassible – not influenced by our problems? Does God ever change?

The question is not, does God change in His attributes. He doesn’t. He is omnipotent. He is always holy. God is light. God is omniscient. God is love. He has many other attributes that do not change.

But, that is not the question. The question can be stated a number of ways: Does God ever repent? Does God change His mind? Does God think something will happen, and then it doesn’t? Does God show emotion? Does He change in any way in the state of His being? I believe the answer to all these questions is yes.

These ideas, instead of degrading God, cause us to appreciate and glorify Him. He does do the things asked in these questions, but the most significant fact for me concerns His supposed impassability – He suffers. In other words, He has passion. This is the opposite of having no passion – impassability.

God suffers! What comfort that gives me. Our God is touched by our sufferings. God suffers because of us, with us, and for us. For instance, in Hosea 11:1-4,8,9 it says, “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son. As they called them, so they went from them. They sacrificed to the Baals, and burned incense to carved images. I taught Ephraim to walk, taking them by their arms, but they did not know that I healed them. I drew them with gentle cords, with bands of love, and I was to them as those who take the yoke from their neck. I stooped and fed them. . . . My people are bent on backsliding from Me. Though they call to the Most High, none at all exalt Him. How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I set you like Zeboiim? My heart churns within Me; My sympathy is stirred. I will not execute the fierceness of My anger. I will not again destroy Ephraim. For I am God, and not man, The Holy One in your midst, and I will not come with terror.

Then, we observe Him as the loving husband, in Hosea 1:2; 2:5,13; 3:1; and 6:4-7. The LORD said to Hosea: “Go, take yourself a wife of harlotry and children of harlotry, for the land has committed great harlotry by departing from the LORD.” 2:5 “For their mother has played the harlot; She who conceived them has behaved shamefully. For she said, ‘I will go after my lovers, who give me my bread and my water, my wool and my linen, my oil and my drink.’” 2:13 “She decked herself with her earrings and jewelry, and went after her lovers; but Me she forgot,” says the LORD. 3:1 “Go again, love a woman who is loved by a lover and is committing adultery, just like the love of the LORD for the children of Israel, who look to other gods and love the raisin cakes of the pagans.” 6:4-7 “O Ephraim, what shall I do to you? O Judah, what shall I do to you? For your faithfulness is like a morning cloud, and like the early dew it goes away.”

But we have been influenced by the Greek philosophy that has permeated Christianity. You may think, a perfect God can’t suffer. But, it is true. When tragedy strikes, when pain pierces deep – we are not the only ones who suffer. God suffers longer and deeper than all of us put together. Where did this idea, the idea that God can’t suffer, come from? It came from philosophy, not the Bible.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Can someone not have emotions about something they already know? Certain emotions maybe not, like hope for instance. I just fail to see the argument for open theism based on God showing emotion. Can you not show emotion about something you already know? Even time and time again?

Bob Hill said:

Gentlemen, I believe it is important to see where the Calvinistic material is coming from. As I read Augustine and those who bought into his philosophy, I think it is clear where Augustinian and then, Calvinism, came from.

The foundation of the Calvinistic view of predestination is immutability. Is God immutable? Is He impassible – not influenced by our problems? Does God ever change?

The question is not, does God change in His attributes. He doesn’t. He is omnipotent. He is always holy. God is light. God is omniscient. God is love. He has many other attributes that do not change.

But, that is not the question. The question can be stated a number of ways: Does God ever repent? Does God change His mind? Does God think something will happen, and then it doesn’t? Does God show emotion? Does He change in any way in the state of His being? I believe the answer to all these questions is yes.

These ideas, instead of degrading God, cause us to appreciate and glorify Him. He does do the things asked in these questions, but the most significant fact for me concerns His supposed impassability – He suffers. In other words, He has passion. This is the opposite of having no passion – impassability.

God suffers! What comfort that gives me. Our God is touched by our sufferings. God suffers because of us, with us, and for us. For instance, in Hosea 11:1-4,8,9 it says, “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son. As they called them, so they went from them. They sacrificed to the Baals, and burned incense to carved images. I taught Ephraim to walk, taking them by their arms, but they did not know that I healed them. I drew them with gentle cords, with bands of love, and I was to them as those who take the yoke from their neck. I stooped and fed them. . . . My people are bent on backsliding from Me. Though they call to the Most High, none at all exalt Him. How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I set you like Zeboiim? My heart churns within Me; My sympathy is stirred. I will not execute the fierceness of My anger. I will not again destroy Ephraim. For I am God, and not man, The Holy One in your midst, and I will not come with terror.

Then, we observe Him as the loving husband, in Hosea 1:2; 2:5,13; 3:1; and 6:4-7. The LORD said to Hosea: “Go, take yourself a wife of harlotry and children of harlotry, for the land has committed great harlotry by departing from the LORD.” 2:5 “For their mother has played the harlot; She who conceived them has behaved shamefully. For she said, ‘I will go after my lovers, who give me my bread and my water, my wool and my linen, my oil and my drink.’” 2:13 “She decked herself with her earrings and jewelry, and went after her lovers; but Me she forgot,” says the LORD. 3:1 “Go again, love a woman who is loved by a lover and is committing adultery, just like the love of the LORD for the children of Israel, who look to other gods and love the raisin cakes of the pagans.” 6:4-7 “O Ephraim, what shall I do to you? O Judah, what shall I do to you? For your faithfulness is like a morning cloud, and like the early dew it goes away.”

But we have been influenced by the Greek philosophy that has permeated Christianity. You may think, a perfect God can’t suffer. But, it is true. When tragedy strikes, when pain pierces deep – we are not the only ones who suffer. God suffers longer and deeper than all of us put together. Where did this idea, the idea that God can’t suffer, come from? It came from philosophy, not the Bible.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

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It is an honor to have you share your wise insights. Oh, to have you post more.

God is personal, not impersonal. He is dynamic and relational, not static and aloof.

It is a powerful thought to realize the tender heart of God can be broken and grieved, yet He is the epitomy of strength and can judge in truth, righteousness, and terrifying wrath.

God bless you, Pastor Hill (nothing personal when I quibble about 'The Plot' here).

i didn't know Bob Hill was a member of TOL until now.

Great post Bob :thumb:

Welcome to TOL, Pastor Hill.

Thank you all for the warm welcome. I plan to be on theologyonline quite a bit from now on.

What did God mean in Numbers 23:19 when it says, “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?” Doesn’t God repent, ever?

In Genesis 6:5-7 we find that God not only does repent, but He also grieves. Genesis 6:5-7 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord repented [it repented the LORD] that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I repent that I have made them.”

What does the Bible show the meaning of this word, repent, is? Let’s look at the use of the word, repent, when it refers to man. The Hebrew word, nacham, as it is used here, means repent or change your mind. Here are the references that use repent with men. I’ll use bold to show the translation of nacham, repent.

Ex 13:17 Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest perhaps the people change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.
Job 42:6 Therefore I abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes.
Jer 8:6 I listened and heard, but they do not speak aright. No man repented of his wickedness, saying, what have I done? Everyone turned to his own course, as the horse rushes into the battle.
Jer 31:19 Surely, after my turning, I repented; And after I was instructed, I struck myself on the thigh; I was ashamed, yes, even humiliated, because I bore the reproach of my youth. 20 Is Ephraim My dear son? Is he a pleasant child? For though I spoke against him, I earnestly remember him still; Therefore My heart yearns for him; I will surely have mercy on him, says the Lord.

From these passages it is clear that the word, nacham, means a change of mind or heart. Man’s repentance seems to arise from fear, conviction of sin, shame, or abhorrence of himself.

Now let’s look at the passages that show that God repents.
Gen 6:4-7 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. 5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord repented [it repented the LORD] that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I repent that I have made them.
Ex 32:9-14 And the Lord said to Moses, I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation. 11 Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God, and said: Lord, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, “He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth?” Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever. 14 So the Lord repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Judges 2:18-21 And when the Lord raised up judges for them, the Lord was with the judge and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for the Lord repented because of their groaning because of those who oppressed them and harassed them. 19 And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they reverted and behaved more corruptly than their fathers, by following other gods, to serve them and bow down to them. They did not cease from their own doings nor from their stubborn way. 20 Then the anger of the Lord was hot against Israel; and He said, Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and has not heeded My voice, 21 I also will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died,
1 Sa 15:11-29,35 I repent that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments. And it grieved Samuel, and he cried out to the Lord all night. 12 So when Samuel rose early in the morning to meet Saul, it was told Samuel, saying, Saul went to Carmel, and indeed, he set up a monument for himself; and he has gone on around, passed by, and gone down to Gilgal. 13 Then Samuel went to Saul, and Saul said to him, Blessed are you of the Lord! I have performed the commandment of the Lord. 14 But Samuel said, What then is this bleating of the sheep in my ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear? 15 And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites; for the people spared the best of the sheep and the oxen, to sacrifice to the Lord your God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed. 16 Then Samuel said to Saul, Be quiet! And I will tell you what the Lord said to me last night. And he said to him, Speak on. 17 So Samuel said, When you were little in your own eyes, were you not head of the tribes of Israel? And did not the Lord anoint you king over Israel? 18 Now the Lord sent you on a mission, and said, “Go, and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are consumed. 19 Why then did you not obey the voice of the Lord? Why did you swoop down on the spoil, and do evil in the sight of the Lord?” 20 And Saul said to Samuel, But I have obeyed the voice of the Lord, and gone on the mission on which the Lord sent me, and brought back Agag king of Amalek; I have utterly destroyed the Amalekites. 21 But the people took of the plunder, sheep and oxen, the best of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice to the Lord your God in Gilgal. 22 Then Samuel said: Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, As in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, He also has rejected you from being king. 24 Then Saul said to Samuel, I have sinned, for I have transgressed the commandment of the Lord and your words, because I feared the people and obeyed their voice. 25 Now therefore, please pardon my sin, and return with me, that I may worship the Lord. 26 But Samuel said to Saul, I will not return with you, for you have rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord has rejected you from being king over Israel. 27 And as Samuel turned around to go away, Saul seized the edge of his robe, and it tore. 28 So Samuel said to him, The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today, and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you. 29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent. For He is not a man, that He should repent. 35 And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the Lord repented that He had made Saul king over Israel.
2 Sa 24:1,9-16 Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. 9 Then Joab gave the sum of the number of the people to the king. And there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men who drew the sword, and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men. 10 And David’s heart condemned him after he had numbered the people. So David said to the Lord, I have sinned greatly in what I have done; but now, I pray, O Lord, take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have done very foolishly. 11 Now when David arose in the morning, the word of the Lord came to the prophet Gad, David’s seer, saying, 12 Go and tell David, Thus says the Lord: I offer you three things; choose one of them for yourself, that I may do it to you. 13 So Gad came to David and told him; and he said to him, Shall seven years of famine come to you in your land? Or shall you flee three months before your enemies, while they pursue you? Or shall there be three days plague in your land? Now consider and see what answer I should take back to Him who sent me. 14 And David said to Gad, I am in great distress. Please let us fall into the hand of the Lord, for His mercies are great; but do not let me fall into the hand of man. 15 So the Lord sent a plague upon Israel from the morning till the appointed time. From Dan to Beersheba seventy thousand men of the people died. 16 And when the angel stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented from the destruction, and said to the angel who was destroying the people, It is enough; now restrain your hand. And the angel of the Lord was by the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.
1 Ch 21:1,15 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 15 And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying, the Lord looked and repented of the disaster, and said to the angel who was destroying, It is enough; now restrain your hand. And the angel of the Lord stood by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.
Psa 90:13 Return, O Lord! How long? And repent concerning Your servants.
Psa 106:45 And for their sake He remembered His covenant and repented according to the multitude of His mercies.
Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn and the heavens above be black because I have spoken. I have purposed and will not repent, nor will I turn back from it.
Jer 15:6 You have forsaken Me, says the Lord, You have gone backward. Therefore I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am weary of repenting!
Jer 18:7-12 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. 11 Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus says the Lord: Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, That is hopeless! So we will walk according to our own plans, and we will every one obey the dictates of his evil heart.
Jer 20:16 And let that man be like the cities Which the Lord overthrew, and did not repent; Let him hear the cry in the morning And the shouting at noon,
Jer 26:2,3,13,18 Thus says the Lord: Stand in the court of the Lords house, and speak to all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the Lords house, all the words that I command you to speak to them. Do not diminish a word. 3 Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may repent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings. 13 Now therefore, amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God; then the Lord will repent concerning the doom that He has pronounced against you. 18 Micah of Moresheth prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah, and spoke to all the people of Judah, saying, Thus says the Lord of hosts: Zion shall be plowed like a field, Jerusalem shall become heaps of ruins, and the mountain of the temple like the bare hills of the forest. 19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah ever put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and seek the Lords favor? And the Lord repented concerning the doom which He had pronounced against them. But we are doing great evil against ourselves.
Jer 42:10 If you will still remain in this land, then I will build you and not pull you down, and I will plant you and not pluck you up. For I repent concerning the disaster that I have brought upon you.
Ezek 24:14 I, the Lord, have spoken it; It shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not hold back, Nor will I spare, Nor will I repent; According to your ways and according to your deeds They will judge you, Says the Lord God.
Joel 2:11-14 The Lord gives voice before His army, For His camp is very great; For strong is the One who executes His word. For the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; Who can endure it? 12 Now, therefore, says the Lord, Turn to Me with all your heart, With fasting, with weeping, and with mourning. 13 So rend your heart, and not your garments; Return to the Lord your God, For He is gracious and merciful, Slow to anger, and of great kindness; And He repents from doing harm. 14 Who knows if He will turn and repent, And leave a blessing behind Him – A grain offering and a drink offering For the Lord your God?
Amos 7:1-6 Thus the Lord God showed me: Behold, He formed locust swarms at the beginning of the late crop; indeed it was the late crop after the king’s mowings. 2 And so it was, when they had finished eating the grass of the land, that I said: O Lord God, forgive, I pray! Oh, that Jacob may stand, For he is small! 3 So the Lord repented concerning this. It shall not be, said the Lord. 4 Thus the Lord God showed me: Behold, the Lord God called for conflict by fire, and it consumed the great deep and devoured the territory. 5 Then I said: O Lord God, cease, I pray! Oh, that Jacob may stand, For he is small! 6 So the Lord repented concerning this. This also shall not be, said the Lord God.
Jon 3:6-4:2 Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes. 7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published throughout Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything; do not let them eat, or drink water. 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish? 10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it. 4:1 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. 2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who repents from doing harm.
Zec 8:14,15 For thus says the Lord of hosts: Just as I determined to punish you when your fathers provoked Me to wrath, says the Lord of hosts, and I would not repent, 15 so again in these days I am determined to do good to Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
From these passages it is even clearer that the word, repent, means a change of mind or heart. However, God changes His mind because of mercy, compassion, or righteous judgment.
The Bible shows God is immutable, unchanging, in His character, love, mercy, but He is not immutable in the sense of the theologians who have based their theology on the Greek philosophy which states that God is outside of time. For instance, that pagan philosopher, Plato himself (Died 347 BC), explained in “A dialogue between Socrates and Adeimantus.” “Is it not true that to be altered and moved by something else happens least to things that are in the best condition . . . that the healthiest and strongest is least altered. . . . would be least disturbed and altered by any external affection . . . least liable to be changed by time and other influences. . . It is universally true then, that that which is in the best state . . . admits least alteration by something else. . . Then does he (God) change himself for the better and to something fairer, or for the worse and to something uglier than himself? It must necessarily . . . be for the worse if he is changed . . . the gods themselves are incapable of change. . . . Then God is altogether simple and true in deed and word, and neither changes himself . . . .

Now again, if God didn’t mean that He repented, what did He mean? As we have seen, God used the word nacham for His own actions at least twenty-six times. Every time it is used of God, it is in a context of changing His mind or purpose in punishing or rewarding a person or group of people. The use of this word was so appalling to Augustine, the creator of what we call Calvinism, that he wrote about it in his book, On the Morals of the Catholic Church.

Augustine explained away the doctrines of the Old Testament that he thought were so absurd. He strongly disagreed with the literal interpretation of the Old Testament. Here is what he wrote about our twenty-six passages: “We do not worship a God who repents, or is envious, or needy . . . . These and such like are the silly notions . . . the fancies of old women or of children . . . and . . . those by whom these passages are literally understood. . . . And should any one suppose that anything in God’s substance or nature can suffer change or conversion, he will be held guilty of wild profanity.”

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Bob Hill said:

Augustine explained away the doctrines of the Old Testament that he thought were so absurd. He strongly disagreed with the literal interpretation of the Old Testament. Here is what he wrote about our twenty-six passages: “We do not worship a God who repents, or is envious, or needy . . . . These and such like are the silly notions . . . the fancies of old women or of children . . . and . . . those by whom these passages are literally understood. . . . And should any one suppose that anything in God’s substance or nature can suffer change or conversion, he will be held guilty of wild profanity.”

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Whoa! That's a deal breaker. :shocked:

Exodus 20:4-6 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."