A problem with open theism (HOF thread)

godrulz · Jun 4, 2005

Freak said:
What parts of the future does God know? Does He know what is to occur as recorded in the book of Revelation (which is speaking of a future event)?

Yes. He can orchestrate things with His omnicompetence to bring these things to pass. General judgments of the nations does not specify every moral and mundane choice leading up to these broad events. The antichrist is not specified by name, birthdate, etc. Revelation is not Nostradamus. He is in full control of judging nations, returning in the clouds, setting up a millennial kingdom, throwing Satan into the lake of fire, etc. These are predictable and revealed in general terms because God will bring them to pass. It does not specify who will be saved, how every human will die, who will marry whom, what job we will have, etc. Extrapolating beyond the text is not reasonable to support your preconceived ideas. Rev. 1-3 was present knowledge to the author. Rev. 4-22 is general enough to be knowable and brought to pass by God. There are many creative ways to bring His purposes to pass without controlling or knowing every detail along the way. Even if someone shoots a Christian in the Tribulation, this will not thwart the Second Coming of Christ or His global judgments.

godrulz · Jun 4, 2005

Agape4Robin said:
The whole Bible is a literary device. And I have read a good commentary. Whose should I read? Mr. Boyd's?

Reading authors from both sides is helpful. Boyd writes readable theology books, not commentaries. I read anti-Open Theism books and find they generally spout Calvinism and use similar arguments against Arminianism. They also routinely misunderstand and misrepresent the Open View.

godrulz · Jun 4, 2005

Agape4Robin said:
Let me apologize....I do tend to be passionate about the God of the Bible....

As well all should be. This is why I have a problem with His character and ways being misrepresented. People reject a straw man caricature of God (e.g. Calvinism making God responsible for heinous evil is a stumbling block to belief).

godrulz · Jun 4, 2005

Agape4Robin said:
Feisty? Me? :chuckle:
I would much rather err on the side of orthodoxy, rather than jump on a band wagon.

I am also against fads and winds of doctrine. Open Theism is not a fad nor a new heresy. It is biblically, historically, and theologically defensible.

godrulz · Jun 4, 2005

This thread is spreading like wildfire or a virus (even though it rehashing old threads). :singer:

Delmar · Jun 4, 2005

deardelmar said:
It's like the way a 90 year old perceives time differently than a five year old but to the extreme.

Agape4Robin said:
Comparing a human with a human......... :chuckle:

Just showing that there is not necessarily anything mystical about the fact that God experiences time differently than we do. Why do you find it so implausible that God could explain some things in a manner that you can understand?

Delmar · Jun 4, 2005

godrulz said:
When I ask the lost if there is anything an omniscient God cannot know, they usually intuitively say 'the future'. I am blown away at their insight when they are not seeing through the filter of a traditional view without being exposed to an alternative view that is less problematic.

Wow, I have never tried that! What an excellent point!

Agape4Robin · Jun 4, 2005

godrulz said:
This is why I have a problem with His character and ways being misrepresented. People reject a straw man caricature of God (e.g. Calvinism making God responsible for heinous evil is a stumbling block to belief).

So do I.......
No where at any time do I even suggest that God is responsible for heinous evil.

Agape4Robin · Jun 4, 2005

deardelmar said:
Just showing that there is not necessarily anything mystical about the fact that God experiences time differently than we do. Why do you find it so implausible that God could explain some things in a manner that you can understand?

I know that He does, and yet you think God does not know the future exhaustively. But to compare human experience of time does nothing to show the context in which God experiences time.

Delmar · Jun 4, 2005

Agape4Robin said:
I know that He does, and yet you think God does not know the future exhaustively. But to compare human experience of time does nothing to show the context in which God experiences time.

And yet the bible makes that very comparison of how god sees time...in relation to how we see it.

Psa 90:4 For you, a thousand years are as yesterday!
They are like a few hours!

Agape4Robin · Jun 4, 2005

deardelmar said:
And yet the bible makes that very comparison of how god sees time...in relation to how we see it.

Psa 90:4 For you, a thousand years are as yesterday!
They are like a few hours!

Are we in a sense, making TIME an attribute of God? (when science says it is an attribute of matter).

Delmar · Jun 4, 2005

Agape4Robin said:
Are we in a sense, making TIME an attribute of God? (when science says it is an attribute of matter).

Science does not define the attributes of God

Agape4Robin · Jun 4, 2005

deardelmar said:
Science does not define the attributes of God

Read what I asked again, DD.

Agape4Robin said:
Are we in a sense, making TIME an attribute of God? (when science says it is an attribute of matter).

drbrumley · Jun 4, 2005

Freak said:
What parts of the future does God know? Does He know what is to occur as recorded in the book of Revelation (which is speaking of a future event)?

Again, for the upteenth time,

if man has any free agency - can make any choices not totally predestined by God, then, those future free acts would be unknowlable.

Why you guys have such a hard time with this is beyond me.

Jeremiah85 · Jun 4, 2005

drbrumley said:
Again, for the upteenth time,

if man has any free agency - can make any choices not totally predestined by God, then, those future free acts would be unknowlable.

Why you guys have such a hard time with this is beyond me.

Because we do not believe in predestination. We do not believe that God makes our choices for us. We simply believe that God knows what choice that we will make, not that God will predestine what choice that we will make. We are not Calvinist as you imply.

drbrumley · Jun 4, 2005

And.....God has no need to foreknow anything but His own plans. He determines His own plans, then makes them happen. On the other hand, God does not say He foreknows the human choices of man. His foreknowledge is very explicit.

Jeremiah85 · Jun 4, 2005

drbrumley said:
And.....God has no need to foreknow anything but His own plans. He determines His own plans, then makes them happen. On the other hand, God does not say He foreknows the human choices of man. His foreknowledge is very explicit.

Where does the Bible say that God limits His foreknowledge to His own plans?

julie21 · Jun 4, 2005

Jeremiah85 said:
Because we do not believe in predestination. We do not believe that God makes our choices for us. We simply believe that God knows what choice that we will make, not that God will predestine what choice that we will make. We are not Calvinist as you imply.

:BRAVO: That's it precisely!

drbrumley · Jun 4, 2005

Jeremiah85 said:
Where does the Bible say that God limits His foreknowledge to His own plans?

The biblical statement that God made was God knows because He will do it. I want to quote the last verse of the Isaiah passage Isa 46:9-11 “Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.”

God declares the end from the beginning, because He will bring to pass His eternal purpose.

Agape4Robin · Jun 4, 2005

drbrumley said:
The biblical statement that God made was God knows because He will do it. I want to quote the last verse of the Isaiah passage Isa 46:9-11 “Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.”

God declares the end from the beginning, because He will bring to pass His eternal purpose.

Yet you say that He chooses not to know our choices? Are we not a part of His plan?

A problem with open theism (HOF thread)

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