A problem with open theism (HOF thread)

Poly · Jun 6, 2005

docrob57 said:
Good question, and I really don't know. My experience seems to say "yes," and I think there is ample Biblical evidence for it, though I know you can argue Biblically for the other side as well.

But the question is, why does the Bible make sense to you and I but not to others? Well, there is the presense of the Holy Spirit, and that came about through faith. But why do we have faith and others do not? Why would anyone not want to believe?

God gives all of us a sense of right and wrong by giving us a conscience. And it's this sense of right and wrong that gives us a deep down sense of the need to turn to God. Unfortunately because we live in a fallen world some people have different circumstances in their lives that keep them from seeking after God. A child may grow up in an abusive home which now causes him to have an outlook that life isn't fair and because of his bitterness, wants nothing to do with God, suppressing any tugging of the Holy Spirit to turn to Him. Another child may have grown up in a good home with a good and protective father and because of this he is more inclined to seek after that which is good and that which will ultimately protect him forever. I'm not saying that the abusive child will never turn to God and the protected child always will. Other factors can play a part in making choices. The abused child may have the kind of temperment that now wants to find something that will protect him since he never had security in his parents. And although there could be circumstances that cause the child that wasn't abused, not to seek God, more times than not, a child that comes from a healthy home who see parents who love God will be more likely to seek after Him as well.

I don't mean to imply that how a child is raised is the only factor in whether or not a person chooses God but it does play a big role.

docrob57 · Jun 6, 2005

Poly said:
God gives all of us a sense of right and wrong by giving us a conscience. And it's this sense of right and wrong that gives us a deep down sense of the need to turn to God. Unfortunately because we live in a fallen world some people have different circumstances in their lives that might keep them from seeking after God. A child may grow up in an abusive home which now causes him to have an outlook that life isn't fair and because of his bitterness, wants nothing to do with God, suppressing any tugging of the Holy Spirit to turn to Him. Another child may have grown up in a good home with a good and protective father and because of this he is more inclined to seek after that which is good and that which will ultimately protect him forever. I'm not saying that the abusive child will never turn to God and the protected child always will. Other factors can play a part in making choices. The abused child may have the kind of temperment that now wants to find something that will protect him since he never had security in his parents. And although there could be circumstances that cause the child that wasn't abused, not to seek God, more times than not, a child that comes from a healthy home who see parents who love God will be more likely to seek after Him as well.

I don't mean to imply that how a child is raised is the only factor in whether or not a person chooses God but it does play a big role.

Sure. And on the question of predestination, I am not sure if it is a situation where God foreordains who will be saved or where he simply foreknows who will be saved. I do know that regardless of the free will/determinism debate, I have a duty to serve God. So ultimately, it really doesn't impact either my day to day living or my eternity.

godrulz · Jun 6, 2005

docrob57 said:
Neither free will, self determination or supernatural intervention are counterarguments to anything I was talking about. For those raising supernatural intervention, it would appear that they are placed in the uneasy position of arguing that God cannot know the outcome of His intervention.

God can know the outcome of His intervention. If he sends an earthquake in judgment or giant hail stones, He can know the cause-effect that people could die if He wanted them to. This does not mean that free moral agents are governed by the law of cause-effect in everything. We are governed by the law of love and liberty. We are able to make moral and mundane choices that have different outcomes that are not knowable as a certainty/actuality until the possible alternate choices are made.

Perhaps we do not understand what you are getting it?

docrob57 · Jun 6, 2005

godrulz said:
God can know the outcome of His intervention. If he sends an earthquake in judgment or giant hail stones, He can know the cause-effect that people could die if He wanted them to. This does not mean that free moral agents are governed by the law of cause-effect in everything. We are governed by the law of love and liberty. We are able to make moral and mundane choices that have different outcomes that are not knowable as a certainty/actuality until the possible alternate choices are made.

Perhaps we do not understand what you are getting it?

Don't worry about it. We are using terms like "law" and "causality" differently. Which is not to say that we agree on these matters. But, at least from my perspective, at the end of the day it doesn't matter a lot.

godrulz · Jun 6, 2005

docrob57 said:
No, if God knows absolutely that some specific event in the future will happen, then it is not possible that the event won't happen.

This can be defended logically and philosophically. Some do not understand this or do not like the implications of it (they have to change their theology/views). We all need a course in critical thinking, logical fallacies, and modal logic (deals with contingencies, necessities, certainties, probabilities, possibilities).

Nathon Detroit · Jun 6, 2005

docrob57 said:
I certainly don't agree that God ordains the future in every detail, but I am not sure that Calvin argued that either.

Maybe, maybe not . . . but when dust is settled that is indeed the only logical conclusion that is left in Calvinism.

Presented with those choices I guess I would be more Arminian. Except that I do believe in predestination as it relates to salvation. Perhaps I am a theological mutt.

So, you are saying you believe individuals are predestined to salvation and others are predestined to damnation?

justchristian · Jun 6, 2005

How would you guys say a free will decision is made? Is it character? experience? what is it about the source of free will that is beyond the ability to know for God?

docrob57 · Jun 6, 2005

Knight said:
Maybe, maybe not . . . but when dust is settled that is indeed the only logical conclusion that is left in Calvinism.

So, you are saying you believe individuals are predestined to salvation and others are predestined to damnation?

Yes

For example from Romans 9:

There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

godrulz · Jun 6, 2005

justchristian said:
But we say that "I know when I drop a rock it will hit the ground." We dont really know it will hit the ground but we expect it to. Are you saying it is the same with God? The reason we dont know the rock will hit the ground is becuse the situation may change outside our knowledge, the laws of the unverse may change, an animal may run between the rock and the ground, all these variables we cannot see affect our knowledge to expectation. But God isnt ignorant of these varibles. He has an infinite knowledge of his creation. Why should a an infinite God be unable to calculate the future based on the present if he has a complete understanding of all things that will affect the future?

Hark!

Inanimate creation is governed by the law of cause and effect. It is highly predictable unless acted on by outside forces/agents.

Animate creation (animals) are governed by instinct.

Moral creation is governed by love, liberty, and life. Cause and effect may affect us, but it is not the only factor. If I jump out of the plane with a parachute before it crashes, I may not be crushed or die with the plane.

Applying cause-effect analogies to free moral agents leads to wrong conclusions. It is a non sequitur that cause-effect resolves the issues surrounding free choices and the nature of future knowledge.

God knows all the variables and can predict many things. This perfect past and present knowledge cannot be extrapolated to prove that God has to know if and when I will pick my nose from eternity past.

God could have exhaustive foreknowledge if He would have created a cause-effect deterministic universe. He chose the higher good of love and liberty. This introduced risk and precluded exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies.

Philosophically, one cannot have their cake and eat it too. Either there is genuine freedom among moral agents or there is not exhaustive foreknowledge. We cannot have exhaustive foreknowledge AND genuine free will.

Nathon Detroit · Jun 6, 2005

justchristian said:
How would you guys say a free will decision is made? Is it character? experience?

Both of those factors and other factors as well.

what is it about the source of free will that is beyond the ability to know for God?

Ugh. :doh:

Again... it isn't that God COULDN'T have scripted all of the future either through ordination or through foreknowldge because He most certainly could have. Yet its that He chose NOT to script the entire future through ordination or through foreknowldge.

God knew (being all knowing like He is) that if He were going to create humans with a REAL ability to make their own decisions without His coercion through ordination or foreknowledge that He would have to create them in a way without dictating their future through direct ordination or through foreknowledge.

His not knowing all of our future choices is by His design.

Nathon Detroit · Jun 6, 2005

docrob57 said:
Yes

For example from Romans 9:

There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

OK, doc what Bible story is Paul referencing here in Romans 9?

It is important we take this step by step.

And if you go with me (step by step) you will see how your theology is reading more into this verse than is actually there.

godrulz · Jun 6, 2005

justchristian said:
why sorry? assuming the rock has free will and we are God? I guess you have to decide whether our created free will is free from knowledge and control of it or just control of it. Free will isnt some random event generator. There is a reason behind every choice we make just as there is a reason behind everything God does. Whether God is prevy to this reason is the question I guess.

God knows reasons and motives and alternate possibilities. This does not mean free choices are absolutely knowable trillions of years before they happen. The more proximal we are to the choice, then the more perfect past/present knowledge has on the probability of choice/outcome. Remote knowledge (eternity past) is insufficient to explain high probability (there is not enough past/present knowledge of actual variables to predict with certainty...there is nothing saying that my particular parents and sperm-egg would unite to form me or that I would not have died by now before I typed this).

godrulz · Jun 6, 2005

docrob57 said:
I would have to place that beyond God's ability. That is one of those can God create a rock to big for him to lift type questions.

The rock question is a logical absurdity/contradiction. God creating other free moral agents with the ability to impact a contingent universe is coherent and in fact what He did. John Sanders is correct that God is not a control freak; He is a God who risks and gives limited creativity and control to other moral agents besides Himself. This is why we are in the mess we are in (abuse of free will) and that there is a hell (intended for devil, not man).

godrulz · Jun 6, 2005

docrob57 said:
Going back to the original boiling water example. I come home, my why has a pot of water on the stove at high temperature. My wife has gone to the store (sure, she shouldnt leave a pot on the stove, but after all, this is just a hypothetical ) . I go check my e-mail and go to the bathroom. Not at the same time. Ten minutes later, I hear my wife come in the front door. I know that the water is boiling, even though I had no control over it whatsoever.

This assumes the free will family member does not come and turn the pot off or the dog does not knock it on the floor. We do not live in a closed universe. There are too many contingent variables to apply this analogy to free moral agents and foreknowledge.

Nathon Detroit · Jun 6, 2005

godrulz said:
God knows reasons and motives and alternate possibilities. This does not mean free choices are absolutely knowable trillions of years before they happen. The more proximal we are to the choice, then the more perfect past/present knowledge has on the probability of choice/outcome. Remote knowledge (eternity past) is insufficient to explain high probability (there is not enough past/present knowledge of actual variables to predict with certainty...there is nothing saying that my particular parents and sperm-egg would unite to form me or that I would not have died by now before I typed this).

Excellent post.

Which is why God said to Abraham just before sacrificing his son Isaac....

Genesis 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

". . . for now I know . . . "

God didn't know a millennia beforehand - yet He also didn't need to wait until Abraham had actually completed the event to know. There was a point in time that God had sufficient cause to say ". . . for now I know . . . ". Since God is all knowing He knew Abraham's every intent and there must have been reason to delay saying ". . . for now I know . . . " until God really knew.

Jeremiah85 · Jun 6, 2005

docrob57 said:
Yes

For example from Romans 9:

There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 3:36 He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.

Are you saying that God, when He created us, gave some people no chance at all to be saved?

godrulz · Jun 6, 2005

docrob57 said:
Let me be clear, I am a political scientist by training, not a theologian, so I may be off on my terminology. From what I understand, you are describing "hyper Calvinism," and I do not ascribe to that. I do think that God earmarks some for salvation and some not. This is the only way I can understand how some people are predisposed to believe and some are not. I may be wrong, I guess it just helps me to understand to think of things that way.

Double predestination/election/non-election is not a necessary explanation for why some repent . Free moral agency is another factor besides God's sovereign will.

godrulz · Jun 6, 2005

justchristian said:
How would you guys say a free will decision is made? Is it character? experience? what is it about the source of free will that is beyond the ability to know for God?

God can know our wills, intentions, desires, character, etc. If an act be free, there must be an equal possibility of doing x, y, or z. Until the choice is made, it is not certain (from eternity past) whether I will chose blue, pink, or green. I may like one color more and it is probable I will chose it, but it is not necessary that I chose it. If it was, it would be knowable as a certainty rather than a possibility.

godrulz · Jun 6, 2005

docrob57 said:
Yes

For example from Romans 9:

There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

Context is corporate election of national Israel for service, not individual election/non-election to salvation/damnation. Love and holiness are not arbitrary. They are impartial and just.

drbrumley · Jun 6, 2005

Knight, I for one am glad your back on the thread. Godrulz and myself kept it going, even though Godrulz had more clarity in his posts describing our view. Thank you Godrulz.

While I think I have a handle on Open Theism, my explanations of it might need some work. As someone I respect in this field of study, is there anything that stands out in my posts that might need some attention?

A problem with open theism (HOF thread)

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