BRXII Battle talk

CabinetMaker said:

Young's litteral is the only one that translates willing as counsel. A litteral translation does not guarntee an accurate translation because it does not account for the context in which the word was used. A word-for-word translation can cause more confusion than clearity. One of the universalists favorite arguments that hell is not eternal is a litteral translation of aion into age-during. In english, age-during is meaningless. Your appeal to Young's translation does not change the meaning of the verse. God's desire is that all men should be saved but that desire does not carry the force of God's will.

The only way to escape the fire is to enter through the narrow gate. The narrow gate is open to any with the Key and the Key is Christ. That is the gospel, the good news of our savior. He is the map and the key to the kingdom of heaven.

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Hardened hearts cannot even see the gate.

Fortunately, God has the power and the desire to change hearts.

Dave Miller said:

Hardened hearts cannot even see the gate.

Fortunately, God has the power and the desire to change hearts.

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One thing you seem to forget is that nowhere in Scripture are we told about anyone's redemption taking place after their death. Why do you suppose that is?

red77 said:

Maybe you should do the same, then you might be able to answer peoples questions when they ask you to address a verse....

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logos_x said:

It was the religious leaders that Jesus had the most trouble with....and from.

Things haven't changed much in that area...have they?

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Nope... people still like to make up their own rules and disregard what God has to say.

Dave Miller said:

Nin and CM,

Why would Jesus say to "pray for those who persecute you," if it were a waste of time?

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Good question. Why would He if there really wasn't any reason.

red77 said:

....the one doctrine to bring a literally hopeless outlook is the doctrine of unending torment, ironically it is the doctrine of ET ...

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red...

In the Lake there is no hope. Those who are lost to it have no hope. Those who are alive now and headed for it are right now condemend already without hope. Only Christ offers hope.

Dave Miller said:

Hardened hearts cannot even see the gate.

Fortunately, God has the power and the desire to change hearts.

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And what of those who do not want their hearts changed?

Nineveh said:

Um... aren't you the apostate? Besides, I don't see the CINO's deconverting you any.

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Well, the CINO's and other folks like them, are helping to make me more positively disposed....

Balder said:

Well, the CINO's and other folks like them, are helping to make me more positively disposed....

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Too bad God doesn't weigh in there any.

Dave Miller said:

The good Samaritan wasn't Jewish or Christian, but he knew God's Will.

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No one would accuse Balder of doing God's Will, except maybe yourself.

Dave Miller said:

Hardened hearts cannot even see the gate.

Fortunately, God has the power and the desire to change hearts.

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But not against your will. God wnats us to come to Him because we want to, because we want to be with Him, not because He changed our hearts. To be sure, God works i our hearts to convict us of our need for Him, but He allows us to say no. God shows us the gate and the key. We each have a big God shapped hole in our heart put there by the fall. So we can respond to God's calling.

Have you followed any of the recent discussion between Logos and I? I asked him for some passages that plainly spell out that you have a chance to accept Jesus after you die. I gave him examples of the types of verses he should look for. Did you notice his response? He didn't even try. He posted a couple of verses that were taken completely out of context. When pressed again, he walked away from the debate. Why? Because the passages that would support universal salvation do not exist. You try. Can you find a single verse where Jesus, or an apsotle, says plainly and clearly that you can accept Jesus while in the lake of fire? Can you show me a single verse where Jesus or an apostle says the anybody gets out of the lake of fire?

If you cannot find the passages to support your doctrine, do you think it might be time to honestly examine what you believe and why you believe it?

Nineveh said:

Too bad God doesn't weigh in there any.

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I know God. I don't believe he has any plans to torture or punish people forever. The CINO's are voicing what I've long believed. I understand that you are attempting to stay true to what you believe the Bible says, rather than just choosing what you would prefer to believe, and I respect that. But the Bible's witness on the matter is not crystal clear; it contains passages which seem to suggest this, and others which seem to suggest otherwise.

Even if you think your interpretation is best, I think there is enough evidence that folks like Logos_X have provided to at least give you pause. Would you be offended if they were right? Would you be disappointed? Or would it be cause to rejoice -- that all, ultimately, will know the joy of conscious fellowship with the One?

Nineveh said:

And what of those who do not want their hearts changed?

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Did Saul want his heart changed before becoming the Apostle Paul?
He was going to Damascus to arrest Christians. I think it's pretty safe to say he had no intention of becoming one.

Please, think about this carefully, because you seem to be saying that God is so passive in the salvation process that He leaves the entire process up to slaves to sin to even begin the process of being changed, and will not even influence the initiation of the process.

Surely you see how unlike the Bible that really sounds.

The Law doesn't work. Why it doesn't work is because fallen man cannot even begin to do what the law requires fully. It shows us our need for salvation...how sinful man is.

People dead in tresspasses and sin need to be made alive to God...and God is the only one who can make one alive to Him.

Our salvation is not a matter of will power...it is a matter of being made alive.

Without God kissing us to life...there is no salvation.

Being made alive to God will effect everything about us. Our response, or lack of response, affects how we progress.

Our will plays it's role....but it is not the begining nor the end.

logos_x said:

Did Saul want his heart changed before becoming the Apostle Paul?
He was going to Damascus to arrest Christians. I think it's pretty safe to say he had no intention of becoming one.

Please, think about this carefully, because you seem to be saying that God is so passive in the salvation process that He leaves the entire process up to slaves to sin to even begin the process of being changed, and will not even influence the initiation of the process.

Surely you see how unlike the Bible that really sounds.

The Law doesn't work. Why it doesn't work is because fallen man cannot even begin to do what the law requires fully. It shows us our need for salvation...how sinful man is.

People dead in tresspasses and sin need to be made alive to God...and God is the only one who can make one alive to Him.

Our salvation is not a matter of will power...it is a matter of being made alive.

Without God kissing us to life...there is no salvation.

Being made alive to God will effect everything about us. Our response, or lack of response, affects how we progress.

Our will plays it's role....but it is not the begining nor the end.

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There ya go! :thumb:

The only possible way for a sinner to believe unto salvation is God "kissing us to life." And, God loves the whole world. Eternal torment suggests that God does not love the whole world because that would mean there were some whom He did not "kiss."

Balder said:

I know God. I don't believe he has any plans to torture or punish people forever.

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...wait...

You said you became an apostate because you realized He was telling the Truth about the Lake. So which is it?

The CINO's are voicing what I've long believed.

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Duh.

I understand that you are attempting to stay true to what you believe the Bible says, rather than just choosing what you would prefer to believe, and I respect that. But the Bible's witness on the matter is not crystal clear; it contains passages which seem to suggest this, and others which seem to suggest otherwise.

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That's why you should read the whole thing. One could make up almost any docrtine using a fave 2 or 3 verses.

Even if you think your interpretation is best, I think there is enough evidence that folks like Logos_X have provided to at least give you pause.

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Really? What evidence should that be? The obscure versions he uses that use even more obscure translations of a word or two? Or... :think:... that's about the only thing he's offered.

Would you be offended if they were right? Would you be disappointed? Or would it be cause to rejoice -- that all, ultimately, will know the joy of conscious fellowship with the One?

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Offended? No. Unfortunately many will be lost by that time for the false hope they have "age during" to repent. It's really hard to read the Bible and come away with what a buddhist can (like you), or an agnostic can (like kimberly), or a buddhist in methodist's clothing (like dave), or a lying hypocrite can (like red). Logos's brethren are a motley bunch.

logos_x said:

Our salvation is not a matter of will power...it is a matter of being made alive.

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It is a matter of will. Who's will is leading your life? Who's will is best according to you? Could your heart submit to another's will?

dale said:

There ya go! :thumb:

The only possible way for a sinner to believe unto salvation is God "kissing us to life." And, God loves the whole world. Eternal torment suggests that God does not love the whole world because that would mean there were some whom He did not "kiss."

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Jesus proves God loved the world, yet those who do not believe are condemned already.

Nineveh said:

It is a matter of will. Who's will is leading your life? Who's will is best according to you? Could your heart submit to another's will?

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Yes.

But...it is not JUST our will.

Salvation requires gaining the ability to see it at all...BEFORE a true choice could ever be made. Awakening to the will of the other is a requirement. And that is something we are powerless to do.

Grace has power...it's not just this "turn or burn" stuff that any coward would respond to so as to escape some overbearing peril.

logos_x said:

Yes.

But...it is not JUST our will.

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If one is not willing to put their own way aside for Another's they won't. God wants us to come to Him but you and I both agree He isn't going to force anyone.

Salvation requires gaining the ability to see it at all...BEFORE a true choice could ever be made. Awakening to the will of the other is a requirement. And that is something we are powerless to do.

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The ability to see what?

See that our own wills are not as good as His. That we are indeed sinners who will face judgement without His cleansing blood. And even then we have the option to say, "no, I'll keep doing things my own way."

Grace has power...it's not just this "turn or burn" stuff that any coward would respond to so as to escape some overbearing peril.

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Grace was not given to me until this coward was on the floor in humble repentance.

Nineveh said:

...wait...

You said you became an apostate because you realized He was telling the Truth about the Lake. So which is it?

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I didn't say that. I said one reason I left Christianity was because the only message I consistently heard, which appeared to me at the time to be backed up by scripture, was that eternal torment was indeed inevitable. And I did not believe the One, the Supreme Lord, would ever do that.

Nineveh said:

That's why you should read the whole thing. One could make up almost any docrtine using a fave 2 or 3 verses.

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I have read the whole Bible. I am sure Dave, Logos, and Redfin have too.

Nineveh said:

Offended? No. Unfortunately many will be lost by that time for the false hope they have "age during" to repent. It's really hard to read the Bible and come away with what a buddhist can (like you), or an agnostic can (like kimberly), or a buddhist in methodist's clothing (like dave), or a lying hypocrite can (like red). Logos's brethren are a motley bunch.

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We're all unique. Your own reading of the Bible is equally influenced by your own predispositions. You do not occupy an interpretation-free zone, nor is your understanding of the Bible unhindered by the your own particular limitations in understanding and perspective.

That's why you should read the whole thing. One could make up almost any docrtine using a fave 2 or 3 verses.

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Except its not just 2 or 3 verses as has been patently obvious throughout this entire thread, in any case you've had extreme difficulty in just addressing the one, any answers on Jesus's answer to the disciples yet?

Really? What evidence should that be? The obscure versions he uses that use even more obscure translations of a word or two? Or... :think:... that's about the only thing he's offered.

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Obscure versions? Oh please, they're the most faithful to the original texts, the KJV isnt even regarded as particularly accurate from non universalists so enough with that strawman, and its patently obvious to anyone who isnt trying to score cheap points that Logos has offered a darn sight more than what you give him credit for....

Offended? No. Unfortunately many will be lost by that time for the false hope they have "age during" to repent. It's really hard to read the Bible and come away with what a buddhist can (like you), or an agnostic can (like kimberly), or a buddhist in methodist's clothing (like dave), or a lying hypocrite can (like red). Logos's brethren are a motley bunch.

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You cant help yourself can you? None of us are Logos's 'brethren' and this is just pathetic, are you reduced to trying to condemn universalism by attacking people themselves? What an arrogant self righteous hypocrite you are, you'll so easily stand in judgement of others and wont even address your own errors when you're caught red handed in your own false witness against others, you are a hypocrite for misrepresenting me earlier in this thread and have had no answer whatsoever for your blatant fault, and something else - at least Logos's 'brethren' display compassion and empathy - something that I dont see in any of those who support the unending suffering of their fellow human beings....