Purpose In Suffering

nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Truster said:
Justice was served.
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Indeed it was. But even as justice was served, it was completed.

Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 9:25-26

For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
I Peter 3:17-18

If we suffer for well doing and Christ suffered once for sins (in which justice was served - as you point out), then our suffering is neither punishment nor expiation. I don't believe it is unjust either, but the purposes of suffering go beyond simple retribution. Do you not agree?

Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Job 2:9-10

EDIT : So maybe I misused your term "wrongfully"? If we suffer with Christ, we will reign with Him. Those sufferings work an eternal weight of glory so they are not wrong - just not necessarily assessed for punishment or our personal correction.
 
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T

Truster

New member
nikolai_42 said:
Indeed it was. But even as justice was served, it was completed.

Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 9:25-26

For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
I Peter 3:17-18

If we suffer for well doing and Christ suffered once for sins (in which justice was served - as you point out), then our suffering is neither punishment nor expiation. I don't believe it is unjust either, but the purposes of suffering go beyond simple retribution. Do you not agree?

Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Job 2:9-10
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You have scriptures that you repeat but you do so parrot fashion.
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Truster said:
You have scriptures that you repeat but you do so parrot fashion.
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I updated my last post about the same time you were posting this. Does that clarify anything?

If not, let me ask you this :

When you say no one suffers wrongfully, are you saying everyone who suffers personally deserves to suffer for some wrong they have committed?
 
T

Truster

New member
nikolai_42 said:
I updated my last post about the same time you were posting this. Does that clarify anything?

If not, let me ask you this :

When you say no one suffers wrongfully, are you saying everyone who suffers personally deserves to suffer for some wrong they have committed?
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You don't recognise the truth I've provided you with, so why should I provide you with more? (Rhetorical?)

Truth is not to be argued over or disputed. Truth is to be received or denied. In both cases the Eternal Almighty is glorified.
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Truster said:
You don't recognise the truth I've provided you with, so why should I provide you with more? (Rhetorical?)

Truth is not to be argued over or disputed. Truth is to be received or denied. In both cases the Eternal Almighty is glorified.
Click to expand...

If you mean this :

The reason and purpose of suffering trials of affliction for the holy is to correct and humble them.
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...then please clarify if suffering always is for correction AND humility or if suffering generally is for correction and humility (and need not be for both in every instance).
 
T

Truster

New member
"He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a Elohim of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he".
 
T

Truster

New member
Squeaky said:
I said
lol I don't think you understand. Enemies are those who oppose the truth.
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This verse fits you perfectly, "That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them", wear it.
 
S

Squeaky

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Banned
Truster said:
You don't recognise the truth I've provided you with, so why should I provide you with more? (Rhetorical?)

Truth is not to be argued over or disputed. Truth is to be received or denied. In both cases the Eternal Almighty is glorified.
Click to expand...

I said
Do you know there is no truth without scripture. Everything said carnally is only opinion or theology. And we all know that theology is spiritual theory, and theory is guessing.

[Jhn 17:17-19
17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
 
S

Squeaky

BANNED
Banned
Truster said:
This verse fits you perfectly, "That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them", wear it.
Click to expand...

I said
lol Are you saying you have enemies that agree with you?
 
Ask Mr. Religion

Ask Mr. Religion

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There are purposes in suffering:
Spoiler
Spoiler

Why Suffering in the World?

We believers in orthodox Christendom do not not believe that "purposeless suffering" exists. God is wholly sovereign, therefore there is nothing that happens in the universe that is not outside of his purview and control. Recall that even the devil had to get permission from God to visit suffering upon Job. This is why Luther remarked, "Satan is God's devil."

This is a deeply personal topic for me. My dear wife has suffered for many years, confined to her bed most days, unable to think clearly, often endangering herself and those around her, and in requiring my 24-hr/7-day personal care for all her needs. It is sometimes enervating for me, as it confines me to be at her bedside many hours of the day, and I do ask God "why?" often, but never with my fist extended heavenward in anger. Frustration, yes. Anger, never.

There is suffering in the world for many reasons. We cannot understand all the reasons for these things, for a transcendent (extending or lying beyond the limits of ordinary experience) God is after all, knowable only in a limited sense by our finite minds. When we see suffering and seemingly meaningless evil, it is difficult to believe that there is a purpose in it. Yet we know that God must have a morally sufficient reason for permitting evil to occur, for he is certainly able to eliminate evil in this world.

We know God is righteous, and thus we must trust that some greater good comes from God's decision to not eliminate evil. As in the case of Joseph, who suffered greatly at the hands of his brothers and others, yet explained to them, in Genesis 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

We need not look further than the Cross to see how the most evil act in human history, the crucifixion of our Lord, was purposed by God to bring about the greatest good possible—eternal life for God’s people.

So these are just two examples that teach us that God, being perfectly holy, wills righteously those things which men do wickedly. Now I am not arguing that the evil we see in this world is not really evil. There is no doubt that genuine evil is present. But there is also no doubt that evil occurs only because God actively (not passively) permits it for reasons He has not chosen to fully reveal to us. Perhaps God does not reveal the reasons because we are just incapable of understanding the reason, or for His own good and wise counsel (Duet. 29:29)

For example, think about finding an animal with its leg caught in a trap. To extricate the poor creature you will have to perhaps push the trap deeper into its leg in order to release the locking mechanism, causing great pain. To the animal, which cannot comprehend what you are doing or why you are doing it, your action appears that just more evil is being inflicted upon it. Yet, the reality is, from your vantage point as a being with much higher intelligence and state of being than the animal, that you are actually freeing the creature from its predicament, albeit with the short-term required pain that accompanies your actions.

Yet another analogy is treatment of children by doctors. Sometimes that treatment is very painful and the child cannot fully understand why he or she must suffer at the hands of a person who is supposed to be healing them, yet the treatment brings about a greater good in the child’s life.

I think if we look carefully in the Scriptures we can determine some of the reasons for suffering.

First suffering can be a test of faith such as described in
1Pe 1:7 so that the tested genuineness of your faith--more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire--may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Second, suffering can be a sanctifying experience. Joseph saw how an apparent evil towards him was meant for a greater good by God:
Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Third, suffering could be a chastisement as the result of sin in a person’s life. Chastisement does not mean complete and total rejection by God, only that our souls may be cleansed from the malady of sin. Paul spoke of this chastisement:
1Co 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.
1Co 11:30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
1Co 11:31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

Yet, not all illnesses or sickness is the result of sin. Christ clearly said as much:
John 9:1 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth.
John 9:2 And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
John 9:3 Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

We see here that Christ did not imply that the man or his parents had not sinned. He meant that the man’s blindness was not a direct result of sin in their lives. God had actively permitted (willfully ordained) this man to be born blind in order that the man might become a means of displaying the mighty works of God. Before the man was born, the Christ knew He would give sight to those blind eyes.

Fourth, suffering can sometimes be considered a means by which we display the sympathy of Christ in a practical manner, thus proving our faith through works. The Apostle Paul notes:
Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

The afflictions endured by Paul in his flesh were for the sake of Christ's body, namely, the church. The sufferings of non-believing people are, in one sense, purposeless. There is no high dignity attached to these sufferings. The sufferings of the non-believer are only a foretaste of the torment of hell to be endured forever. But the suffering of the believer is not the same. When believers suffer for Christ, Christ in a very real way suffers with them.

Fifth, suffering can be a means by which we are tempered (strengthened) for the eventualities to come. Christ, when speaking to Peter of his eventual death stated:
John 21:18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.

As in the old saying, “what doesn’t kill you, sometimes makes you stronger”, suffering can build us up so that we are better prepared for the future and its travails.

Sixth, suffering can be used as a Christian witness to others of God’s unmerited grace. All watch how we believers bear our suffering. Our attitude (spoken and unspoken) towards an illness, accident, etc. and our reception of illness, accident, etc., speak volumes when our explicit spoken testimony of faith is rejected.

Seventh, suffering is sometimes a means of weaning us from the things of this world to cause us to draw nearer to God. Suffering should be a means of educating us to the prospect of heaven. This earthly world is not the home of the believer. We are pilgrims and strangers here on this fallen mortal coil whose citizenship is in another place. Our minds should be focused on things invisible and not in the temporal things of this life.

We must remember that with the fall of mankind in Eden sin entered the world, corrupting earth and all its inhabitants. Thus we have sin directly causing suffering when sinful people commit sinful acts. We have sin causing suffering indirectly by the deteriorating earth and all its natural disasters.

Eighth, suffering is actually a means by which we can comfort others, so there is a fellowship of suffering in some cases.
2Co 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
2Co 1:4 who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.
2Co 1:5 For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too.

Christ told us that we would suffer in this world:
John 16:33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.

But why doesn’t God just stop evil actions that cause innocent people to suffer?

Jer 12:1 Righteous are you, O LORD, when I complain to you; yet I would plead my case before you. Why does the way of the wicked prosper? Why do all who are treacherous thrive?
Jer 12:2 You plant them, and they take root; they grow and produce fruit; you are near in their mouth and far from their heart.

So in the end, some still like to ask questions like: Why doesn’t God intervene to stop evil if He is all-loving and all-powerful? Why doesn’t He stop the drunk driver’s car that is going to crash into a bus? Why doesn’t He deflect the murderer’s bullets?

The person asking these questions doesn’t really want God to stop all their evil actions. They don’t want to be invisibly gagged every time they’re about to say something hurtful; they don’t want to stub their toe when they try to kick the dog. They just think it would be good if God stopped certain evil acts or just the evil acts of others. But that would make life impossible. There would be no freedoms, no regularity and no personal responsibility.

Having said this, we must never forget that God is not indifferent to our sufferings for we have the Helper, the Holy Spirit, to bear our travails with us. Moreover, God's grace restrains sin and sinners so that we can appreciate mercy and unmerited grace in light of sin. If God did not do so our streets would be running with the blood of and drawn by the reprobate.

See also Piper and Taylor’s, Suffering and the Sovereignty of God available for purchase here.

AMR


AMR
 
T

Truster

New member
Squeaky said:
I said
Do you know there is no truth without scripture. Everything said carnally is only opinion or theology. And we all know that theology is spiritual theory, and theory is guessing.

[Jhn 17:17-19
17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
Click to expand...

Guns go bang. That's truth and you won't find it in scripture.
 
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