ECT The Middle Wall of Partition and the MADists

Jerry Shugart · Apr 9, 2018

Here we see that the middle wall of partition between the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers has been broken down and both groups have been reconciled unto God in one Body, the Body of Christ:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).

Those who call themselves Mid-Acts dispensationalists on this forum say that the middle wall has not been broken down because they say that all of the Jews who originally received the Hebrew epistles were not members of the Body of Christ.

Will there be even one of these Mid-Acts dispensationalists who will tell us why they deny that the middle wall has been broken down?

Jerry Shugart · Apr 9, 2018

We can also see that Jewish believers were baptized by one Spirit into the Body of Christ:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

I am still waiting for any of the MADists on this forum to tell us why we should believe that all those who received the Hebrew epistles were not members of the Body of Christ despite the fact that Paul said that the middle wall of partition has been broken down?

All I hear are the crickets!

DAN P · Apr 9, 2018

Jerry Shugart; I am still waiting for any of the MADists on this forum to tell us why we should believe that all those who received the Hebrew epistles were not members of the Body of Christ despite the fact that Paul said that the middle wall of partition has been broken down? All I hear are the crickets![/QUOTE said:
Hi Jerry , and I believe that Hebrews was written to Hebrews !!

#1 I believe that Jews can be saved today by , 2 Cor 3:16 !!~

#2 And today there are no Jews OR Gentiles nor Bond or Free neither Males nor Females , as we ARE all "in Christ ."

Who are you talking about ??

Who do you think wrote Hebrews and why ??

dan p

Jerry Shugart · Apr 9, 2018

DAN P said:
Hi Jerry , and I believe that Hebrews was written to Hebrews !!

Yes, but that doesn't mean that the doctrine found in that book is not doctrine which applies to the Body of Christ.

Why do you not think that the middle wall of partition still stands and the Jewish believers have not been baptized into the Body of Christ since Paul says otherwise?

DAN P · Apr 9, 2018

Jerry Shugart said:
Yes, but that doesn't mean that the doctrine found in that book is not doctrine which applies to the Body of Christ.

Why do you not think that the middle wall of partition still stands and the Jewish believers have not been baptized into the Body of Christ since Paul says otherwise?

Hi Jerry and answered this question for you , that the middle wall has been taken down , do you see this and IF it was not taken DOWN , the Law of Moses would still be IN EFFECT !!

No Jews can be saved ONLY to be saved by Grace as Peter says in Acts 15:11 !

dan p

Jerry Shugart · Apr 9, 2018

DAN P said:
Hi Jerry and answered this question for you , that the middle wall has been taken down , do you see this and IF it was not taken DOWN , the Law of Moses would still be IN EFFECT !!

Yes, the middle wall of partition has been broken down and both the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers have been reconciled to God "in one Body" (Eph.2:16), the Body of Christ.

But don't you teach that the Jewish believers who received the Hebrew epistles were not in the Body?

DAN P said:
No Jews can be saved ONLY to be saved by Grace as Peter says in Acts 15:11 !

In that verse Peter says that he was saved by grace, the same way that the Gentiles are saved.

Do you think that it took more than "faith" for those who lived under the law to be saved?

DAN P · Apr 9, 2018

Jerry Shugart said:
Yes, the middle wall of partition has been broken down and both the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers have been reconciled to God "in one Body" (Eph.2:16), the Body of Christ.

But don't you teach that the Jewish believers who received the Hebrew epistles were not in the Body?

In that verse Peter says that he was saved by grace, the same way that the Gentiles are saved.

Do you think that it took more than "faith" for those who lived under the law to be saved?

Hi Jerry and where does it say that He ( Peter ) was saved by Grace ??

Tell me Jerry , who is the WE ??

And who is the THEY ??

And when does the THEY HAPPEN ??

dan p

Jerry Shugart · Apr 9, 2018

DAN P said:
Hi Jerry and where does it say that He ( Peter ) was saved by Grace ??

All people who are saved now and have been saved in the past have all been saved by faith apart from works, and that includes those who lived under the law:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).

Again, the Scriptures reveal that the middle wall of partition has been broken down and both the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers have been reconciled to God "in one Body" (Eph.2:16), the Body of Christ.

But don't you teach that the Jewish believers who originally received the Hebrew epistles were not in the Body?

Could you please explain why you don't think that it is broken down and only the Gentile believers are reconciled unto God in one Body?

Danoh · Apr 9, 2018

DAN P said:
Hi Jerry and where does it say that He ( Peter ) was saved by Grace ??

Tell me Jerry , who is the WE ??

And who is the THEY ??

And when does the THEY HAPPEN ??

dan p

Jerry's is a mess.

Ephesians 2 is talking about how that both formerly LOST Gentiles and formerly LOST Jews - including Paul himself - have now been made nigh unto God in One New Man.

Also...

How that, as a result, BOTH are now fellow citizens WITH the saints of Israel (the believing remnant of that nation saved before Paul was saved, and that believing remnant of that nation that will be saved at some point after the Rapture of the Body).

At the same time, Paul has BOTH Agencies' respective realms within that citizenship in mind.

He mentions BOTH realms in Ephesians 1: 10; and again in Ephesians 3:15.

Commonwealth of Israel: The Earth.

Body of Christ: The Heavenlies.

Both based on the FINISHED work of Christ...

Ephesians 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Rom. 14:5; Rom. 5:6-8.

DAN P · Apr 9, 2018

Danoh said:
Jerry's is a mess.

Ephesians 2 is talking about how that both formerly LOST Gentiles and formerly LOST Jews - including Paul himself - have now been made nigh unto God in One New Man.

Also...

How that, as a result, BOTH are now fellow citizens WITH the saints of Israel (the believing remnant of that nation saved before Paul was saved, and that believing remnant of that nation that will be saved at some point after the Rapture of the Body).

At the same time, Paul has BOTH Agencies' respective realms within that citizenship in mind.

He mentions BOTH realms in Ephesians 1: 10; and again in Ephesians 3:15.

Commonwealth of Israel: The Earth.

Body of Christ: The Heavenlies.

Both based on the FINISHED work of Christ...

Ephesians 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Rom. 14:5; Rom. 5:6-8.

Hi and then answer Acts 15:11 for Jerry ?

dan p

DAN P · Apr 9, 2018

Danoh said:
Jerry's is a mess.

Ephesians 2 is talking about how that both formerly LOST Gentiles and formerly LOST Jews - including Paul himself - have now been made nigh unto God in One New Man.

Also...

How that, as a result, BOTH are now fellow citizens WITH the saints of Israel (the believing remnant of that nation saved before Paul was saved, and that believing remnant of that nation that will be saved at some point after the Rapture of the Body).

At the same time, Paul has BOTH Agencies' respective realms within that citizenship in mind.

He mentions BOTH realms in Ephesians 1: 10; and again in Ephesians 3:15.

Commonwealth of Israel: The Earth.

Body of Christ: The Heavenlies.

Both based on the FINISHED work of Christ...

Ephesians 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Rom. 14:5; Rom. 5:6-8.

Hi and then answer Acts 15:11 for Jerry ?

dan p

Danoh · Apr 9, 2018

DAN P said:
Hi and then answer Acts 15:11 for Jerry ?

dan p

Well, you and I perhaps disagree on the "shall be" there.

I hold that Peter is stating a principle.

As in the phrase "the just shall live by faith."

It too is stating a principle not bound to a particular time frame.

Paul even recollects having had to later remind Peter of this timeless principle in Galatains 2.

In other words, in Acts 15, Peter was not referring to some future salvation for the Believing Remnant of Israel under the Law that he was/is/remained a part of.

He was referring to the principle of faith that all are saved by; regardless of Dispensation.

Under the Law...

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

And Under Grace...

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

While I am at it, it is this practice of Paul's - his use of phrasing like "as it is written" that confuses so many (be they Reformed; or Acts 2 Dispys; or Acts 9 / Acts 28 Hybrids; or Acts 28ers, and what ever Jerry is, lol).

They see Paul's use of such phrasing and conclude "see, Paul was preaching that which was prophesied" blah, blah, blah...

But he is actually merely lifting a same, or universal principle that at the same time applies differently during this Mystery Age.

Under the Law, the just lived by faith by believing that the Law was from God through Moses and was thus to be kept by faith, see the end of Romans 2.

Under Grace, the just live by faith by believing that the Grace being dispensed by Paul's gospel is of God through Paul and is thus to be believed in, see the end of Romans 3.

For "as it is written" regardless of Dispensation or Economy "the just shall live by faith."

Poor old Paul, the dear brother ever had in his heart the heavy awareness that his beloved nation had erroneously concluded he was preaching some thing that Moses would have opposed - the issue of faith towards God.

Rom. 14: 5; Rom. 5: 6-8

Danoh · Apr 9, 2018

Yo, DanP, looks like I am not alone on my take on Acts 15:11's "shall be."

The post on this site partly gets it

https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4018

That site partly gets it in that Acts 15: 11 is referring to a universal principle, not to a time frame.

It is referring to a timeless principle.

This here...

Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Is this here...

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

And this here...

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

And this here...

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

In other words, this here...

2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In other words, even under the Law, the issue was faith, see the end of Romans 9.

Rom. 14:5; Rom. 5:6-8.

DAN P · Apr 9, 2018

Danoh said:
Yo, DanP, looks like I am not alone on my take on Acts 15:11's "shall be."

https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4018

Acts 15: 11 is referring to a universal principle, not to a time frame.

It is referring to a timeless principle.

This here...

Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Is this here...

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

In other words, this here...

2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Rom. 14:5; Rom. 5:6-8.

Hi Danoh and I believe that , that TIME is soon !!/

And Believe that Cornelius is that sign post !!

The WE is the Jew and that THEY thought the CHARIS / FAVOR of God to be saved as ( Gentiles ) they also !!

Look at verses 12-14 !!

dan p

Sherman · Apr 9, 2018

This thread is superfluous when we have a very well run one on this topic here

Please move to over to that thread to discuss this topic--and please be civil while you are there.

ECT The Middle Wall of Partition and the MADists

Jerry Shugart

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Jerry Shugart

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DAN P

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