Isn't it reasonable to doubt Young Earth Creationism?

6days

New member
Explain what you glean from Genesis 2:4. Can you see that "day" does not necessarily mean a 24-hour period? Obviously it can have the meaning of a stretch of time not necessarily defined. Can you discuss without insults?
I can discuss without insults if you promise to stop pretending you can't understand simple concepts.

Once again... the word 'DAY' (Yom in Hebrew) has multiple meanings. The meaning is ALWAYS determined by context.

Lets try a practice statement for you in common English...
Back in the day, it took 3 days to paddle up the river, paddling only during the day.
Ok... the test. The word DAY is used 3 times in one sentence but with 3 different meanings. Are you able to understand it?

Ok... Now from the Bible.
Genesis 2 New World 'translation'... 3.And God went on to bless the seventh day.... 4 This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.

There in the Bible you have two different meanings to the word day. Are you able to tell them apart? BTW... There are several more meanings to the word YOM / DAY in Scripture... but the meaning is always easy to understand by context.

Regarding the six days of creation in Genesis 1, a Hebrew Scholar Answers (who does not believe Genesis).
James Barr, Professor of Hebrew Bible at Vanderbilt University, former Regius Professor of Hebrew at Oxford. "Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience; .. Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know.".
So... The Hebrew language demands a literal six days of creation.

Microbiologist, Dr Georgia Purdom says "many Christians have compromised on the historical and theological importance of Genesis. If Adam and Eve aren’t real people who sinned in the Garden of Eden, and as a result we are all not sinners, then Jesus Christ’s death on the cross was useless. ...the*literal truth of Genesis is so important to the authority and truthfulness of Scripture. It is the very foundation of the Gospel."

Or... you might want to study the words of the One who was actually there at the very beginning... JESUS speaking*"Haven't you read the Scriptures?They record that from the beginning 'God made them male and female.'". Jesus could speak clearly. He knew the Jews understood 'the beginning'.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
I trust in him as my lord and religious role model. I don't trust him as a scientist, and he never claimed to be one. I trust scientists, people who spend their lives doing research for no real personal gain beyond notoriety and maybe a book deal

Or was Jesus formally educated at some Judean university I'm not aware of? And in a scientific discipline? Odds seem low, don't you think?

Col 1:16-17KJV
 

Lon

Well-known member
Sorry I don't share personal information online. I hope you understand.
Not really. I have a ThB and a MA. Not too hard to say. Nothing anybody online can do or exploit easily.


My browser told me not to go there...
One of my degrees is not computers, but I'm certainly capable of ensuring my virus protection works. I'm not sure why there is a problem with the site but they believe in old earth. Odd your fellow kind are untrustworthy?


I agree with all of that, especially the scientists pontificating part. But I think some of the blame rests with the mass media: some study comes up with a very specific piece of specialist information, then a reporter is told by the science editor to get a comment from some other scientist in the field, and the complexity of the information is lost in the headline: "Cure to cancer found", or the like, and then the media training of the scientist who never even wrote the paper fails, as he or she is invited to speculate wildly, and does so way off-piste.
It isn't just media, however. Often I've read papers by scientists that also jump the gun regarding assumptions. Unfortunately, the money is in printing the paper. Integrity, imho, is lost when the $ becomes the goal. I'm very sympathetic to more grants etc. but such needs investors, not really media outlets. That's when science itself is commercialized and the 'presentation' loses face (not imho, science work, discovery, investigation itself). It certainly may damage the later however.


But what is the truth here? Papers are written and published in journals, and science is so specialised these days that nothing you read should be taken in isolation: you need the scientists to go to their conferences and argue widely, and resolve the irregularities in the data, and modify the hypotheses, and come up with new experiments to weed out that which was wrong all along. And then, after some considerable period of review, you might have cause to pick up the phone and cautiously talk to a reporter. There is some science reporting that is excellent, and done by people who have at least an understanding of all of this from their own experience.
Agree with the first part and encourage that (for whatever minor effect it would be worth). The second part? Maybe a necessary evil, but I'm often skeptical. It always seems to force politics and agenda once it gets out.
I don't think it is unreasonable to assume an old earth for most purposes, because that is so well established in so many independent fields, supported by so much evidence, that a scientist should be allowed to start somewhere. There are certainly assumptions made about volcanic layers in regards to dating very old specimens, and so forth, but it would be ridiculous to make every scientist go back and revise the science on which all of that is based, every time they do an experiment. And don't forget, this is a very competitive business. Sorry if I am repeating myself here, but if you don't believe that competitiveness works in science then you shouldn't believe in capitalism either.
Good points and I have empathy. I realize things get in the way in many pursuits. It is always political hoops whenever what we are doing affects so many or is supported by so many (politics, death, taxes, etc.)

Well you have really brought it on yourself. I know it's difficult to keep track of which arguments have been fought out already on ToL, but the planes thing is old, and so obviously wrong, that to anyone who has seen it before it is tedious.
Sure, but AGAIN, PhD's have left it up as their studied opinion AND as I said, whatever they say, defend, argue about the one, does indeed apply to the other with special pleading. I realize, for instance, these are old glaciers, not lower glaciers with heavy precipitation BUT I still believe a PhD doing the leg work to try to keep us from 'assuming' is the better science tack. Regardless of how juvenile one thinks this objection is, it YET is posted by a PhD (a few of them actually, and many more cited). It would really need PhD citation and rebuttal to EVER get to 'idiocy.' I just can't see such as viable by itself. If you do, one of you should think of adding a sig. Better yet, if you have the wherewithal, do as Ask Mr. Religion and archive your information. He, frankly, astounds me, with that tenacity.


I've met people with PhDs who are clearly idiots, even though they have a capacity for academic endeavour. One of them became a prominent creationist: one of the brightest people I have met, but a complete idiot. I could pick holes in his arguments off the top of my head, but he just carried on his dogmatic narratives. A very strange thing.

Stuart
Perhaps, I'll entertain this for a second. One fellow on TOL, not a Christian, but a lab tech, often speaks of celestial beings visiting earth. Idiocy? I don't think that is the appropriate word. He is very capable in his field, I'd imagine. "Quirk" or segregated oddity? Better description without the bias in assessment is needed. I'm trying to follow your thinking. The best I can do is the one mentioned but one where I think the other guy crazy might cause better understanding :idunno: If a doctorate was involved in séances after work, I'd have to wonder about the guy.
The contrast here, is, I think, a necessity of comparing what is scientifically explainable, and not. Another example is that I've often found atheists on TOL who discount God, but believe in ghosts etc. To me, there is a logical disconnect. We aren't pure logicians but I think some like you try to operate on such a premise. Atheism, imho, is an effort after such an ideal, but I find it untenable. All atheists, in order to be atheists, must be the center of their worlds else they could not assert such. The universe is entirely too large for any atheist to 'logically' exist (different discussion but important).

:e4e: -Lon
 

Lon

Well-known member
Hi, Lon. In this or other threads on the topic, has anyone broached the aspect of considering that the form of time we now know as chronology may not have been the form of time originally governing the natural creation before the onset of spiritual death and sin?

There is no real mandate for local terran chronological time to have functioned in arrears in linearity since whatever anyone would postulate as origin and source for tangible existence.

Localized chronological time is always presumed. That's a huge fallacy of presupposition on many levels.

Even and especially in science models. The Big Bang, for instance, is postulated to have come off in an accelerated rate inconsistent with our time models today. IOW, 'time' is seen as constant with most speculations, but it fails to recognize that time is a construct and not a property, per say. Many scientists work on concrete sequential, formal concrete operational thinking. The reason why Steven Hawking, thought 'philosophy is dead' is because as brilliant as his formal thinking was, he was incapable of abstract thinking outside of his physical environment past the point of knowing we cannot even advance in science, without philosophical thought. Hawking was very wrong. Probably a higher IQ than I, but not when it comes to abstract thinking and analysis. In his first chapter of his book, he, himself suggests 'theoretical' advances, but then relegates these to only the physical sciences. :( It can't happen that you have theoretical advances without philosophizing 'what-if's.' Theoretical is the process of entertaining and finding 'what-ifs.'
 

Lon

Well-known member
Don't forget the baby-eating...
EVERY time a fetus is dissimilated: Cannibalism of children.
What was that about broad brush stroke?
Sure, you can turn it around. I don't know of many if any atheist against abortion, however. It is a bit easier to use the broader brush stroke if it actually applies.

I'm not sure if you are responding specifically or just having a general rant. If you read what I wrote, this time it is about education. You can have intelligent people who have not been educated. There would have been plenty of people like that in ancient Palestine. And education, where available, would have been all about religious doctrine. And this is true in medieval times, and in the islamic world today also. You have bright people who could run rings around any of us here with their knowledge of scripture and theology. But outside of that, they would appear to be the most ignorant people we had ever met. And that's thanks to the education we did have: take your biblical knowledge back 500 years and you would be laughed at, but take your scientific understanding back 150 years and you would be a world expert, or else derided for being insane.
You'd have to prove some of this out. It is all speculation, and a bit with a white hood, as I've stated. Your brush is definitely larger than mine. I don't think there can be a question about that, and thus, it is going to be more prejudice (thus not education material).
I can see you are upset
. :nono: The hood thing again. You can't see as well when you are wearing it. I don't really get scared of crosses burning on my lawn.
You really shouldn't let me do that to you.
Wish granted.
I am not being personal here, in fact I have made an effort to avoid that.
Look, I started with 'dupe' but only as a warning away from wholesale buy-in without critical thinking. Your counter was 'idiot' for planes on high precipitation glaciers vs. low precipitation glaciers in higher altitudes (again, just special pleading really, once you begin entertaining the differences, it affects BOTH speculations, but those who drink the Kool-Aid instead of analyzing it, aren't using critical thinking skills any longer). Then there was a bit about kids leaving creation ideas in droves... :nono: You can think that's personal. It isn't. As I said, I only care about facts. "Idiots" is a bit removed from 'fact finding/reporting.'

I am sure there are people with higher IQs here than me.

I would say that statistically, they are more likely to be atheists than theists.
I've seen that stat and have often seen its refutation. As I said, there IS a reason the atheist perpetuates that perceived data.
They are also more likely to be deists than theists, I imagine.
Not necessarily, though they don't do well with legalistic churches, denominations, or pastors.
Sorry if it sounds arrogant, but it is true that the Judeo-christian scriptures are historical fiction.
:nono: Your wherewithal to prove such a thing isn't there, never has been. You can't, in fact, show any of it as fiction. Can't. I can dare you to try, but this thread isn't really about that. You can't, in point of fact, show any of it to be fiction. CANNOT.

That is pretty easily demonstrated, and I think I have shown that enough here in the past.
Again, you are TRYING to make yourself the empirical truth of the universe. You aren't that big of a fellow. The MOMENT you admit there is ANYTHING, you cannot explain, you've lost this argument. I actually do have the wherewithal to prove the point. You aren't open to the data, but that is completely beside the point, because the moment you CANNOT naysay an answer to prayer is the moment you lose this argument. Let me just state, unequivocally, you CANNOT actuate all claims on this earth. Because of that, you have NO idea if a sasquatch exists or not. Like me, you can be a sasquatch agnostic (Thomas, one of Jesus' disciples was a doubter too).
That fact only seems to be important to you.
See above.

Opinion noted. It's not that important to me. IQ counts for nothing if all you can do is spout dogma instead of seeking high-quality information. It is only of passing interest that statistically atheists are ahead of theists on IQ. That tells you nothing about individuals.
Funny thing that: ATHEISTS are generally the ones that propagate this idea :think: I've a pretty solid hypothesis why, as well as why Christians aren't really interested in it. I've done a bit of research. As you can imagine, humanitarians generally receive the Nobel Peace prize, Christian outgive all their counterparts, Jews excel at business, and atheists generally pursue more collegiate work. All makes sense to me but does not, in point of fact, reveal a lack of intelligence. I believe that is a propagated fallacy and I've looked at a good many of these 'reports' and papers.
Here is a space for you to allow your reptilian brain to give control back to your conscious human neocortex, which has been hijacked by your feeling of rage.
:chuckle: See those three fingers on your hand while you are pointing at me?
I ALSO have discovered things about others and about myself: We generally give reflection upon others, of who 'we' are when it comes to these kinds of reflective comments. Those fingers say a lot more about us than 'them' whoever they might be. I always read and reread what people write in order to see where they are coming from. When they say "emotional" or "upset?" You can generally tell they are emotional people themselves AND operate on that level. It means you, Stuart, show yourself to be an emotional person on TOL by such comments. I generally don't get my emotions involved on TOL (have been a few times).

I tend to know who I am, what I believe, what my intelligence level is, and what my areas of expertise are. When it comes to science, I had great grades and have taught a bit of it. Most do better and are more interested in the subject (though I still love science channel presentations, it isn't the same as doing or learning good science or practicing). This one is a bit more catered to me, however, because the content is also concerned about philosophy and religion.

So, I think I've a good handle on who you are, your hang-ups, as well as my own. :e4e:
 

Lon

Well-known member
I trust in him as my lord and religious role model. I don't trust him as a scientist, and he never claimed to be one. I trust scientists, people who spend their lives doing research for no real personal gain beyond notoriety and maybe a book deal

Or was Jesus formally educated at some Judean university I'm not aware of? And in a scientific discipline? Odds seem low, don't you think?
Yowch. It is REALLY hard to imagine you see Jesus Christ as Lord of the Universe in your worldview, Greg. He doesn't look like He could have put a ballpoint pen together by your description here. Read:
Col 1:16-17KJV
George's verses tell you Jesus IS the only know-all scientist.
 

Stuu

New member
I'm not sure why there is a problem with the site but they believe in old earth. Odd your fellow kind are untrustworthy?
Well given that's about 80% of the population in my country, it's a fairly wide church. There must be a few who aren't trustworthy.
It would really need PhD citation and rebuttal to EVER get to 'idiocy.' I just can't see such as viable by itself. If you do, one of you should think of adding a sig. Better yet, if you have the wherewithal, do as Ask Mr. Religion and archive your information. He, frankly, astounds me, with that tenacity.
It's tricky with PhDs. On the one hand a scientist needs to have had very specific training and experience that makes them an expert in whatever field it is, but on the other hand a PhD qualifies you to comment on only a very narrow area of science. PhDs can certainly be called authorities, but no ones word should be taken as gospel, so ultimately the PhD is not relevant to determining what the scientific consensus is, or even what the evidence says and fails to say. There are a lot of creationists out there with STEM PhDs in fields unrelated to their favourite topics in creationism. I am always skeptical about books that add PhD after the author's name, because that is not the convention used commonly in science. It is most often used to sell self-help books or creationist works to impressionable people. But I did think earlier today that I find myself repeating the same explanations to different people, so perhaps a series of blogs could cut down my typing.
Perhaps, I'll entertain this for a second. One fellow on TOL, not a Christian, but a lab tech, often speaks of celestial beings visiting earth. Idiocy? I don't think that is the appropriate word. He is very capable in his field, I'd imagine. "Quirk" or segregated oddity? Better description without the bias in assessment is needed. I'm trying to follow your thinking. The best I can do is the one mentioned but one where I think the other guy crazy might cause better understanding :idunno: If a doctorate was involved in séances after work, I'd have to wonder about the guy.
The contrast here, is, I think, a necessity of comparing what is scientifically explainable, and not. Another example is that I've often found atheists on TOL who discount God, but believe in ghosts etc. To me, there is a logical disconnect.
That would be very unusual, but I guess you can believe in ghosts while dismissing gods...
We aren't pure logicians but I think some like you try to operate on such a premise. Atheism, imho, is an effort after such an ideal, but I find it untenable. All atheists, in order to be atheists, must be the center of their worlds else they could not assert such. The universe is entirely too large for any atheist to 'logically' exist (different discussion but important).
You would need to explain that to me in more detail.

Stuart
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Yowch. It is REALLY hard to imagine you see Jesus Christ as Lord of the Universe in your worldview, Greg. He doesn't look like He could have put a ballpoint pen together by your description here. Read:
George's verses tell you Jesus IS the only know-all scientist.

So what you're telling me is that you believe that Jesus could tell you about up quarks and down quarks? And how they make up subatomic particles?

And if so, when did he acquire this knowledge? Did he have it always? If so, did baby Jesus know subatomic physics?


Same question to George
 

Stuu

New member
You'd have to prove some of this out. It is all speculation, and a bit with a white hood, as I've stated.
I think it is reasonable. Any of us going back to medieval times and speaking to an educated person of the time would be amazed at their knowledge of theology.
Look, I started with 'dupe' but only as a warning away from wholesale buy-in without critical thinking. Your counter was 'idiot' for planes on high precipitation glaciers vs. low precipitation glaciers in higher altitudes (again, just special pleading really, once you begin entertaining the differences, it affects BOTH speculations, but those who drink the Kool-Aid instead of analyzing it, aren't using critical thinking skills any longer).
In case I wasn't clear, I wasn't referring to different precipitation rates, merely to the claim that the annual layers would be the same thickness all the way down. The increasing thinness with depth is one of the first things someone casually reading about ice cores would learn, but the website cited gave a calculation of sorts that assumed no difference. You would expect that an object buried in the Greenland ice even five years ago would be several metres down, but the last thousand years of ice core at the bottom of the deepest core might only occupy a metre or two in height.
I've seen that stat and have often seen its refutation. As I said, there IS a reason the atheist perpetuates that perceived data.
One that genuinely amuses me is these results from a survey which had questions about the bible and religious practices from across the world:

religious-knowledge-01.png


Your wherewithal to prove such a thing isn't there, never has been. You can't, in fact, show any of it as fiction. Can't. I can dare you to try, but this thread isn't really about that. You can't, in point of fact, show any of it to be fiction. CANNOT.
Or do you mean must not? Herod was already dead by the time of the Census of Quirinius, so either the slaughter of the innocents or the trip to Bethlehem is fiction, or both. That should be enough for now. Maybe I should write a blog that summarises all the examples I have posted in the past. I could even ask Ask Mr. Religion for a critique of it to include in the blog.
Again, you are TRYING to make yourself the empirical truth of the universe.
No, it's just that I usually do my homework before posting.
You aren't that big of a fellow. The MOMENT you admit there is ANYTHING, you cannot explain, you've lost this argument. I actually do have the wherewithal to prove the point.
Er, I don't understand what the point is.
You aren't open to the data
,
I disagree strongly. The one thing I am always open to is unambiguous evidence.
but that is completely beside the point, because the moment you CANNOT naysay an answer to prayer is the moment you lose this argument. Let me just state, unequivocally, you CANNOT actuate all claims on this earth. Because of that, you have NO idea if a sasquatch exists or not. Like me, you can be a sasquatch agnostic (Thomas, one of Jesus' disciples was a doubter too).
Sorry you have completely lost me there.
Funny thing that: ATHEISTS are generally the ones that propagate this idea I've a pretty solid hypothesis why, as well as why Christians aren't really interested in it. I've done a bit of research. As you can imagine, humanitarians generally receive the Nobel Peace prize, Christian outgive all their counterparts, Jews excel at business, and atheists generally pursue more collegiate work. All makes sense to me but does not, in point of fact, reveal a lack of intelligence. I believe that is a propagated fallacy and I've looked at a good many of these 'reports' and papers.
There appears to be quite a bit of speculation on the internet about the IQ difference. Not sure if any of it means very much.
See those three fingers on your hand while you are pointing at me?
Is that an American expression? I am trying to guess what you mean.
I ALSO have discovered things about others and about myself: We generally give reflection upon others, of who 'we' are when it comes to these kinds of reflective comments. Those fingers say a lot more about us than 'them' whoever they might be. I always read and reread what people write in order to see where they are coming from. When they say "emotional" or "upset?" You can generally tell they are emotional people themselves AND operate on that level. It means you, Stuart, show yourself to be an emotional person on TOL by such comments. I generally don't get my emotions involved on TOL (have been a few times). I tend to know who I am, what I believe, what my intelligence level is, and what my areas of expertise are. When it comes to science, I had great grades and have taught a bit of it. Most do better and are more interested in the subject (though I still love science channel presentations, it isn't the same as doing or learning good science or practicing). This one is a bit more catered to me, however, because the content is also concerned about philosophy and religion. So, I think I've a good handle on who you are, your hang-ups, as well as my own.
Right then.

Stuart
 

GeoffW

New member
So what happens to the ones who reject God?

Phi 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Phi 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Who's left after 'every'?

Geoff.

PS. Not that I want to help derail the very good 'on topic' debate going on here... keep it up. (but neither could I restrain myself).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lon

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
So what you're telling me is that you believe that Jesus could tell you about up quarks and down quarks? And how they make up subatomic particles?

Jesus could tell you all about them, and even could tell you what, if any, particles make up those particles.

And if so, when did he acquire this knowledge?

Well, since He is the Creator of the universe, i imagine He had this knowledge since shortly (relative term, considering we don't know how long God took to plan out creating) before creating.

Did he have it always?

He had it since He started planning how to create the universe.

If so, did baby Jesus know subatomic physics?

Same question to George

Scripture says that Jesus emptied Himself when He became a man. That could reasonably mean that baby Jesus probably didn't know much at the time, but as He grew, He probably began to regain some of that knowledge, and especially when He was baptised by John, when He was anointed with the Spirit and with power. At that time, most likely everything that He knew (at least that could be fit into a finite mind) was restored to Him.

If you asked Him today, He could tell you all about how He created and what particles exist.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
He could also explain muon neutrino, Top, charm, strange and tau neutrinos. Greg... perhaps you are a new believer? Please get to know our Lord and Savior... He is our Creator. John 1, Colossians 1
Given that up quarks and down quarks and muons and the like are utterly meaningless to What is truly important to Jesus, I strongly doubt that He would waste anytime discussing science topics.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Given that up quarks and down quarks and muons and the like are utterly meaningless to What is truly important to Jesus, I strongly doubt that He would waste anytime discussing science topics.

You can ask Him about it when we get to heaven.
 

Apple7

New member
Gen2:21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.


And Yahweh Elohim built (way·yi·ḇen) the side which He had taken from the man into a woman, and brought her (way·ḇi·’e·hā) to the man. And the man said, This now at last( hap·pa·‘am) is bone from my bones, and flesh from my flesh. For this shall be called Woman, because this has been taken out of man. (Gen 2.22 – 23)

As the first human clone, three things in these two passages indicate that Eve was created as a child needing to be raised separate from Adam before she was presented back as an age-appropriate mate.

• The Hebrew verb ‘banah’, employed for the creation of Eve, carries with it the meaning to ‘have children’ and ‘obtain children’.

• The Hebrew verb ‘bo’ informs the reader that after Eve was created from Adam, she then had to be brought back to Adam because she was not with Adam. If Eve had been created as a same-age-adult as Adam, then why would Adam have not woken up with Eve by his side to begin with?

• The exclamation ‘hap·pa·‘am’ (at last!) by Adam indicates that he had been waiting for his mate for a very long time. ‘Paam’ carries with it the definition of ‘annual’ and ‘time’, indicating long duration.




The only logical conclusion to draw from the text is that Eve was created and raised as a CHILD.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
So what you're telling me is that you believe that Jesus could tell you about up quarks and down quarks? And how they make up subatomic particles?

And if so, when did he acquire this knowledge? Did he have it always? If so, did baby Jesus know subatomic physics?


Same question to George

Jesus had access to whatever He wanted, or needed, to have access to. Had He needed a PhD in Physics, He would have had it, but His purpose dictated His appearance in history. He and the Father decided, prior to Christ entering the world, that He would lay aside the infinite aspect of His qualities and appear as a man like any other, with one difference.

The difference is this:
The only man to ever have free will (except for Jesus, called the second Adam) was the first man Adam, who lost it through deliberate unbelief and an action that openly demonstrated it. (by free will I mean the ability to choose fellowship with God or choosing to reject Him) This fall from freedom meant that Adam was now the rightful property of the one he chose to listen to; Satan, who now held title to him and all who would be born to him.

(Slavery has been a phenomenon since the world began. It is only recently that it has gone out of fashion. It is fitting that the scriptures were completed while it was still a completely natural practice because the subject, properly understood from a legal point of view, explains the impeccable view God has of judicial matters and how tied to slavery and freedom the gospel is.)

Any progeny born to a slave is automatically the property of the slave owner and he could do with him/her as he pleased. But Jesus was not the son of a slave. He had no earthly father related to Adam and, therefore, was not, legally, a servant of Satan. When Satan, in his hatred of God, mobilized his army against the Son of God, Jesus let him do it, knowing the victory ahead. Satan was guilty of hatred towards God, but became legally guilty of murder by taking the life of One who did not belong to him. He is now on death row awaiting final punishment.

Just as Jesus could have called legions of angels to rescue Him from the hands of wicked men, He could also have chosen to impress people with a knowledge of subatomic physics. But His purpose was to do the will of His Father, to fulfill the prophecies about Him, to work miracles to show the world that He was the Messiah, and to defeat Satan and conquer the world.

He chose to provide the perfect sacrifice of His body and blood as a final remission of sin. It was the perfect way to provide you with a way to escape punishment along with your owner, should you ask for your freedom. He never wavered from that appointed task. Just as lack of belief lost Adam fellowship with God, so personal belief in God the Son, reinstates it.

If you believe in Jesus, it is because you have been given the gift of faith so that you can believe. But that gift did not come by physics, it came by the mercy and grace of God. You have been freed from slavery because of what Jesus did not do as much as by what He did do. He filled every second of His earthly life, in concert with His Father, concentrating on your redemption, my redemption, and the redemption of all who will come to Him.
 

Apple7

New member
The same science that operates the GPS on our smart phones says that the Universe is billions of years old.
 

6days

New member
Apple7 said:
As the first human clone...
You are bound to end up with false conclusions when you start with false assumptions. Eve was not a clone of a man.

Apple7 said:
three things in these two passages indicate that Eve was created as a child
That is silly, but in any case she was not "created from the ground up" as you earlier said. She was woman... not a child.

In six days God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them.
 
Top