A Reply to Dave Miller

Dave Miller said:

No punctuation in the original Greek. Periods, paragraphs, etc., all
modern inserts. "Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our sins," all part
of the same thought. "And" makes that pretty clear. Daily asking forgiveness
works in conjunction with receiving daily bread.

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They still move from one thought ot another, dave, as you should be able to. Perhaps you would do well to focus on the first three sentences.

Matt 18 says:
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[f]

No mention of repentence in Mattew's witness.

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: shakes head sadly :

Christ himself says, "if they repent, forgive them". You wanted so badly to talk about the Lord's Prayer, and you still have trouble understanding Godly forgiveness to begin with. Which is why I have avoided the topic with you. You fail Christianity 101 on a regular basis.

And how do you resolve this against the Lord's Prayer? Jesus does not say,
"as we forgive those who repent." It would have been easy for Him to say, He obviously
understood the difference between sin, forgiveness, and repentence.

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I don't need to reslove anything dave. It's all teaches the same thing. If you won't listen to Christ, who exactly would you listen to? Those that tickle your ears with thoughs of God sinning?

Look at it: God forgive as, as we forgive.

Same/same. Repentance should be forgiven. It basic Bible 101. Look at Nineveh. They were judged, they repented, they were forgiven. God doesn't forgive like dave, dave should forgive like God.

Or perhaps I am acknowledging, in humility, that I am here by the Grace of God alone, and obedient to Christ's instructions layed down in the Lord's Prayer.

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If you have any humility dave, you hide it under a bushel.

You have lied about me on this thread and it's been pointed out (judged), are you humble? No. Repentant? No. Should I forgive you? No. Why? Because you have the hard heart of a liar, and it would cheapen forgiveness to do so, you don't want it, you haven't asked for it, so you won't get it. What a perfect example of what we are talking about, and you are missing it.

Paul never claims to be sinless, on the contrary, he humbles himself utterly:

Romans 7:

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

He's not saying "I was a sinner, then I repented," Paul is saying "There is sin living in me,
here and now, I keep doing evil."

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He knows he is forgiven. No where does he instruct continually asking forgiveness for sins he makes up. He lives by the Spirit, not self imposed laws.

Nineveh said:

They still move from one thought ot another, dave, as you should be able to. Perhaps you would do well to focus on the first three sentences.

: shakes head sadly :

Christ himself says, "if they repent, forgive them". You wanted so badly to talk about the Lord's Prayer, and you still have trouble understanding Godly forgiveness to begin with. Which is why I have avoided the topic with you. You fail Christianity 101 on a regular basis.

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: Shrugs in disbelief : Focus on the few phrases that support your theology,
ignore the rest.

I don't need to reslove anything dave. It's all teaches the same thing. If you won't listen to Christ, who exactly would you listen to? Those that tickle your ears with thoughs of God sinning?

Look at it: God forgive as, as we forgive.

Same/same. Repentance should be forgiven. It basic Bible 101. Look at Nineveh. They were judged, they repented, they were forgiven. God doesn't forgive like dave, dave should forgive like God.

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In relationship with God, repentence is the act of accepting the Grace and
forgiveness which God offers freely. Maybe you should move past bible 101
to some more advanced courses.

If you have any humility dave, you hide it under a bushel.

You have lied about me on this thread and it's been pointed out (judged), are you humble? No. Repentant? No. Should I forgive you? No. Why? Because you have the hard heart of a liar, and it would cheapen forgiveness to do so, you don't want it, you haven't asked for it, so you won't get it. What a perfect example of what we are talking about, and you are missing it.

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I'm humble before God, hence my continued persistance in asking God to
forgive me, to remove my weaknesses from me, to help me to allow my
flesh, which sins, to obey the will of my Spirit, which is perfected in Christ.

I have rebuked my sister with honesty and sincerity, as an act of Christian Love.
Just as Luke directs me to in the passages you point out.

And by the way, all this rebuking and honesty, from Jesus and Paul, are clearly
intended to be directed towards people in the church, for the benefit of each
other and for the benefit of the church overall. And its clear that the rebukes
are to presented in a loving way, read 2 Cor some time. As for spewing
poison at Pagans and Buddhists and others outside the tradition, never done,
never called for, never acceptible. As it says in Romans 2, we are drawn to
God through His Grace and Mercy, not through harsh treatment.

He knows he is forgiven. No where does he instruct continually asking forgiveness for sins he makes up. He lives by the Spirit, not self imposed laws.

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Bunk, you're not reading Romans 7, your theologizing to the point that you're
ignoring scripture altogether. He knows that he continues to sin. His Spirit longs
for sinlessness, but it is beyond Him. Hence his utter dependence on Christ.

Romans 8 goes on to say that despite the sinful nature of his flesh, he has hope
in the perfection of the Spirit, brought about by Jesus Christ. In the flesh, we
are slaves to the law, in the Spirit, we are free from the law, but here and now,
we are still in the flesh, there is no escape from this.

2 Cor 12:
7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Paul admits he is weak in the flesh, and that weakness persists, but the weakness
serves to keep him humble before God.

OK, Paul does not say "Father forgive me," explicitely, instead he says "Father,
take this weakness from me." Remember, Paul never said he was without
sin, he said sin was a part of his flesh, not spirit, so from that perspective, its
consistant for him to ask God to remove the sin from his person.

Also consistant with Christ suggesting that we ask forgiveness in our prayers
to God, again for the same purpose, that we might maintain proper humility in
relationship with God.

So let me rephrase my question to you, since you have such a hang up over this word forgiveness: since you 've become repentent, are
able, as Paul does, to ask God to continue to remove your persistant fleshly
weaknesses from you?

Dave

Dave Miller said:

: Shrugs in disbelief : Focus on the few phrases that support your theology,
ignore the rest.

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You mean like all the references to repentance before forgiveness?

In relationship with God, repentence is the act of accepting the Grace and
forgiveness which God offers freely. Maybe you should move past bible 101
to some more advanced courses.

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Dave, it's you that denies that repentance is the first step to forgiveness. This is a milk issue.

I'm humble before God, hence my continued persistance in asking God to
forgive me, to remove my weaknesses from me, to help me to allow my
flesh, which sins, to obey the will of my Spirit, which is perfected in Christ.

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You make up sins to be humble for, dave, while ignoring what God clearly calls sin.

I have rebuked my sister with honesty and sincerity, as an act of Christian Love.
Just as Luke directs me to in the passages you point out.

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You have judged wrongly. You have been rebuked, and you persist in your error.

And by the way, all this rebuking and honesty, from Jesus and Paul, are clearly
intended to be directed towards people in the church, for the benefit of each
other and for the benefit of the church overall.

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And you heed them not on this thread.

And its clear that the rebukes
are to presented in a loving way, read 2 Cor some time. As for spewing
poison at Pagans and Buddhists and others outside the tradition, never done,
never called for, never acceptible. As it says in Romans 2, we are drawn to
God through His Grace and Mercy, not through harsh treatment.

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Once again you are in error. If harsh rebuke is needed it should be used. You can't manage to judge simple things rightly dave, so it's no wonder you offer false hope instead of rebuke.

Bunk, you're not reading Romans 7, your theologizing to the point that you're
ignoring scripture altogether. He knows that he continues to sin. His Spirit longs
for sinlessness, but it is beyond Him. Hence his utter dependence on Christ.

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Paul said he is dead to the Law, dave. Why not start at Romans 1 and work your way through the whole book?

Romans 8 goes on to say that despite the sinful nature of his flesh, he has hope
in the perfection of the Spirit, brought about by Jesus Christ. In the flesh, we
are slaves to the law, in the Spirit, we are free from the law, but here and now,
we are still in the flesh, there is no escape from this.

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Is that why you would offer "homosexual commitment cerimonies"? To keep homos in the flesh? Should we continue to sin so that grace may abound? Paul answers that one dave, what did he say?

2 Cor 12:
7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Paul admits he is weak in the flesh, and that weakness persists, but the weakness
serves to keep him humble before God.

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And you claim Pauls "thorn in the flesh" is, what?

OK, Paul does not say "Father forgive me," explicitely, instead he says "Father,
take this weakness from me." Remember, Paul never said he was without
sin, he said sin was a part of his flesh, not spirit, so from that perspective, its
consistant for him to ask God to remove the sin from his person.

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I think your misunderstanding derives from what you believe Paul's thorn is.

Also consistant with Christ suggesting that we ask forgiveness in our prayers
to God, again for the same purpose, that we might maintain proper humility in
relationship with God.

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Go ahead, dave, if you can't manage to live by the Spirit through faith, put yourself back under the Law, who am I to keep you from it?

So let me rephrase my question to you, since you have such a hang up over this word forgiveness: since you 've become repentent, are
able, as Paul does, to ask God to continue to remove your persistant fleshly
weaknesses from you?

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Once again, your misunderstanding leads you to an error in judgement about Paul's thorn.

So, you think that Paul sat on a rose bush? How convenient for your false sense
of sinlessness...

Answer the question.

And you claim Pauls "thorn in the flesh" is, what?

You first....

Dave,
Quit playing games. What do you believe Paul's thorn in his flesh was?

I believe he had a weakness in the flesh of some sort, as he indicates.
Not a physical handicap, but something real and severe enough that he
drew "insults and hardships" for it, again as he indicates in his letter.

How 'bout you? How does your sinless theology spin this one?

Dave

I think you went a little further than that before, what was it you said you thought his "weakness" was?

Nineveh said:

I think you went a little further than that before, what was it you said you thought his "weakness" was?

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I don't recall going any further, though its possible. Though redeemed,
I'm not sinless, after all.

Anyway, its your turn. What's your sinless spin on it?

Dave Miller said:

I don't recall going any further, though its possible. Though redeemed,
I'm not sinless, after all.

Anyway, its your turn. What's your sinless spin on it?

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I think you did go a little further. As you did with David's friendship.

But let's look to what Paul has to say about his "thorn in the flesh".

Galatians 4:12-16 12 Brethren, I urge you to become like me, for I became like you. You have not injured me at all. 13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. 14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15 What 14 then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

I believe his "thorn in the flesh" he asked Christ to take away was an eye ailment. With the above verse, I believe your statements, "weakness in the flesh of some sort, as he indicates. Not a physical handicap" is in error.

Nineveh said:

I think you did go a little further. As you did with David's friendship.

But let's look to what Paul has to say about his "thorn in the flesh".

Galatians 4:12-16 12 Brethren, I urge you to become like me, for I became like you. You have not injured me at all. 13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. 14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15 What 14 then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

I believe his "thorn in the flesh" he asked Christ to take away was an eye ailment. With the above verse, I believe your statements, "weakness in the flesh of some sort, as he indicates. Not a physical handicap" is in error.

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Why would he draw ridicule for having an eye problem?

Plucking out an eye has scriptural significance, after all. If your eye offends
you, pluck it out, Jesus said. Temptation is received through the eyes...

Anyway, in Romans 7 he makes great, great effort to say that he has sin in
his flesh, how can you deny this? He never recants it, he never says "until
I repented, then I no longer had the sin in my flesh." He said he was sinless
in Spirit, yes, but never in the flesh.

Your Galatians quote says "physical infirmity." In Paul's language of "sin in the
flesh," and "corruptible flesh," this could easily be related to a sinful weakness
of some kind. "Trials in the flesh" also reinforces the idea of his struggle with
sin.

Dave

Dave Miller said:

Why would he draw ridicule for having an eye problem?

Plucking out an eye has scriptural significance, after all. If your eye offends
you, pluck it out, Jesus said. Temptation is received through the eyes...

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I guess you are free to ignore the "physical infirmity" part if you like, since it doesn't agree with your assesment of what he is saying there. Besides, why add the "and given them to me"? Sounds sort of odd, doesn't it?

Anyway, in Romans 7 he makes great, great effort to say that he has sin in
his flesh, how can you deny this? He never recants it, he never says "until
I repented, then I no longer had the sin in my flesh." He said he was sinless
in Spirit, yes, but never in the flesh.

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He is explaining the war between the spirit and the flesh all believers deal with, geewiz dave, how far are you going to go to justify your lie about me?

Your Galatians quote says "physical infirmity." In Paul's language of "sin in the
flesh," and "corruptible flesh," this could easily be related to a sinful weakness
of some kind. "Trials in the flesh" also reinforces the idea of his struggle with
sin.

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Except he didn't say that. He said "physical infirmity". He knows the difference between his spirit and his flesh. It seems you want him to say something he doesn't. It's not Paul, but your homosexual theology that is speaking here.

I really wish you would answer my question about your "homosexual commitment cerimonies" and if you see that as being equal to humbling onself and accepting Christ or if it leaves sodomites in their sin.

From Strongs Greek Lexicon of KJV:

Rom 6:19
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity (769) of your flesh (4561): for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity ; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Gal 4:13

Ye know how through infirmity (769) of the flesh (4561) I preached the gospel unto you at the first.

Words 769, (Strong's Number 769 matches the Greek astheneia), infirmity, and flesh, 4561, ( Strong's Number 4561 matches the Greek sarx) used by Paul in both verses, clarifying the context in which he uses the phrase "infirmity of the flesh." Infirmity as in weakness
as in Romans 6:19 "yielding your members servants of uncleanness." Same language
he uses to describe himself.

I think putting Paul on a sinless pedestal is wrong, but I think putting ourselves on a
sinless pedestal is even wronger.

Dave

Dave,
Be honest, I never said Paul didn't sin. I said he never taught us to repent continually of made up sin.

What is wrong dave, is making up sin to repent of.

Losing your patience isn't a sin, it's evidence one needs to pray and seek God's council on issues so the Spirit can bear fruit in our lives.

The night I repented, I repented of having a hard, ungreatful, calloused heart towards God and His Way, the pain/weight/guilt of the sin that I had committed was too much for me to bear. So I threw myself on God's mercy at the foot of the Cross and was Baptized.

My heart is no longer in continuous rebellion toward the Creator, so there is no need for me to continually ask for what He has already so generously given me, a new life in Christ. When I err, my heart is already contrite towards Him, He doesn't have to keep pounding me over the head that HE IS RIGHT, because I know He is.

As far as being humble and repentant towards men, when I sin against someone, or am in error, I don't want to stay wrong or keep my relationship with my brother in a mess. I'd rather know right away so I can fix it as soon as possible.

Why you persist in your error filled judgement against me, I do not know.

Are you ever going to answer my question about "homosexual commitment cerimonies"?

Nineveh said:

Dave,
Be honest, I never said Paul didn't sin. I said he never taught us to repent continually of made up sin.

What is wrong dave, is making up sin to repent of.

Losing your patience isn't a sin, it's evidence one needs to pray and seek God's council on issues so the Spirit can bear fruit in our lives.

The night I repented, I repented of having a hard, ungreatful, calloused heart towards God and His Way, the pain/weight/guilt of the sin that I had committed was too much for me to bear. So I threw myself on God's mercy at the foot of the Cross and was Baptized.

My heart is no longer in continuous rebellion toward the Creator, so there is no need for me to continually ask for what He has already so generously given me, a new life in Christ. When I err, my heart is already contrite towards Him, He doesn't have to keep pounding me over the head that HE IS RIGHT, because I know He is.

As far as being humble and repentant towards men, when I sin against someone, or am in error, I don't want to stay wrong or keep my relationship with my brother in a mess. I'd rather know right away so I can fix it as soon as possible.

Why you persist in your error filled judgement against me, I do not know.

Are you ever going to answer my question about "homosexual commitment cerimonies"?

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Whoever said God continually pounds us? I never said that.

Anyway, I appreciate your "acknowledgement of contrition." Case closed.

And no, I'm not beating that commitment ceremony horse right now, not in this
thread. When I feel like being bruised and abused again, I'll start another thread
and we can go 'round and 'round once again.

This was a good conversation though, lots of good scripture back and forth. Any
journey which delves into Pauline doctrine is a good one.

Peace,

Dave

Dave Miller said:

Whoever said God continually pounds us? I never said that.

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I didn't say you did. However, you act as if He does. You must feel guilty if you feel the need to repent so much. Perhaps it's the definitions you use : shrugs :

Anyway, I appreciate your "acknowledgement of contrition." Case closed.

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Pardon? My witness has never changed, dave.

And no, I'm not beating that commitment ceremony horse right now, not in this
thread. When I feel like being bruised and abused again, I'll start another thread
and we can go 'round and 'round once again.

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The question was simple, does this ceremony equate to repenting and accepting Christ, or does it leave a sodomite in their sin?

This was a good conversation though, lots of good scripture back and forth. Any
journey which delves into Pauline doctrine is a good one.

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That is, when you aren't mocking him.

Peace,

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I wonder if you know the meaning of that word in an empathetic way. :think:

Nineveh said:

I didn't say you did. However, you act as if He does. You must feel guilty if you feel the need to repent so much. Perhaps it's the definitions you use : shrugs :

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Once again, I never used the words "need for repentence." The words were
"asking for forgiveness," as Christ said in the Lord's prayer, and as Paul did
in asking for his weakness in the flesh to be removed from him.

Pardon? My witness has never changed, dave.

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Whatever

The question was simple, does this ceremony equate to repenting and accepting Christ, or does it leave a sodomite in their sin?

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Talkin' to the hand...

That is, when you aren't mocking him.

I wonder if you know the meaning of that word in an empathetic way. :think:

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Nice, grascious conclusion, as always.

Psalm 120:

5 Woe to me that I dwell in Meshech,
that I live among the tents of Kedar!

6 Too long have I lived
among those who hate peace.

7 I am a man of peace;
but when I speak, they are for war.

Dave Miller said:

Once again, I never used the words "need for repentence." The words were "asking for forgiveness," as Christ said in the Lord's prayer, and as Paul did
in asking for his weakness in the flesh to be removed from him.

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And once again I think you are in error not only in what Paul hasn't said and what the Lord's Prayer says and means. You haven't listen to them, you surely won't listen to me, obviously.

Whatever

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No, not "whatever", you are still an unrepentant liar.

Talkin' to the hand...

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More like a thick head and deaf ears that refuse to hear.

Does your "homosexual commitment ceremony" equate to repenting and accepting Christ, or does it leave a sodomite in their sin?

Nice, grascious conclusion, as always.

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Whether I have tack or not doesn't speak to your understanding of true Peace in Christ.

I don't know what all the background is for this obviously long standing disagreement, nor the theologicial or moral stands of either participant, but I'd like to point out something that is very obvious to me.

Christ said we are His friends if we do what He asks us to do. This wording of His is based in relationships, and more specifically in human relationships. In the light of having a relationship with Christ as a friend the very idea that we shouldn't daily ask His forgiveness when we do wrong towards Him and our fellow man (sin) is preposterous.

God, all throughout the OT, used the symbolism of marriage to describe the relationship between He and His people. And, since no one is saved corporately, but rather as an individual, the symbolism of marriage shows the closeness of the relationship, the intimacy, that God desires with each of us.

So, does anyone here think they are insulting their husband or wife if they actually ask forgiveness for something they have done wrong towards that person? Does anyone here think you can sustain your relationship with your husband or wife over the years if you always refuse to apologize for any wrong you have committed, any hurt inflicted? Does anyone here actually think their spouse would be insulted if you apologize for a misdeed?

It's ludicrous to even suggest that it's possible to maintain a loving relationship with that type of attitude towards repentance and forgiveness. Why do people think that God, who wants a daily, intimate, personal, relationship with them would not want to hear words of repentance, love, and humility from those who call themselves His friends? Why would God not want us to express our love for Him through our actions toward Him? Is expressing love and respect for God the antithesis of faith? Does anyone really want to take that position?

To tell the truth I see a huge amount of arrogance and pride in any position that says daily repentance and forgiveness is not needed to maintain a loving relationship with God. That any Christian would even think that they should show God less respect and love than they would show a fellow human being is something that just astounds me....