ECT Suggestion to Knight

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Jerry, I keep on asking you for the same thing and you are unable to provide it. Justifications comes through union with Christ which comes by faith. This is EXPLICITLY said in the Scriptures, meaning the Scriptures CLEARLY AND PLAINLY say that one must have faith in order to be justified.

At least you do recognize that no one is automatically "in Christ":

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor.15:22).​

Before a person is "in Christ" he must do something and that thing is to believe. And the analogous nature of the verse demands some sort of a resemblance as to how a person comes to be "in Christ" and how a person comes to be "in Adam."

And that resemblance is that being "in Christ" and being "in Adam" does not happen automatically in either case. To be "in Christ" a person must believe and to be "in Adam" a person must sin.

Now you are the one who cited the following verse so let us talk about it:

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life"
(Ro.5:18).​

Here we read that the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Do you think that all men receive the free gift of eternal life or do you think that it just came "towards" them according to the following translation of the same verse?:

"so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life" (Ro.5:18; DBY).​
 

tdhiggins

New member
At least you do recognize that no one is automatically "in Christ":

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor.15:22).​

Before a person is "in Christ" he must do something and that thing is to believe. And the analogous nature of the verse demands some sort of a resemblance as to how a person comes to be "in Christ" and how a person comes to be "in Adam."

And that resemblance is that being "in Christ" and being "in Adam" does not happen automatically in either case. To be "in Christ" a person must believe and to be "in Adam" a person must sin.

Now you are the one who cited the following verse so let us talk about it:

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life"
(Ro.5:18).​

Here we read that the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Do you think that all men receive the free gift of eternal life or do you think that it just came "towards" them according to the following translation of the same verse?:

"so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life" (Ro.5:18; DBY).​

Jerry,I’ve already answered this. But you have not answered my request. It’s rather silly to ask me to answer the same thing time and again while you refuse to answer my single request.

But I know why you refuse to answer me. You know that there is no text in Scripture that EXPLICITLY, CLEARLY, and PLAINLY says that I have to do anything to be united with Adam. Yet you refuse to admit this, because it proves your heresy wrong. Therefore, you do not believe the Scriptures. If you believe the Scriptures, you would submit to the clear truth within them.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Jerry,I’ve already answered this.

I don't remember you answering it. Just tell me if you believe that the free gift comes to "all" people or not?

But I know why you refuse to answer me. You know that there is no text in Scripture that EXPLICITLY, CLEARLY, and PLAINLY says that I have to do anything to be united with Adam.

Why would you ask for that since your whole argument is based on the idea that the LORD imputed the sin of Adam to all of his descendants. I see no text in the Scriptures that EXPLICITLY, CLEARLY, and PLAINLY says that. Perhaps you do.

Since you demand that kind of proof then I will wait for that kind of evidence which demonstrates that the LORD imputes the sin of Adam to all of his descendants, especially since the following verses veto that idea:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son"
(Ezek.18:20).​

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin"
(Deut.24:16).​

"But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin"
(2 Chron.25:4).​

If you believe the Scriptures, you would submit to the clear truth within them.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Because it is appointed that all people die physically (Heb.9:27). From the time when Adam ate of the forbidden tree the very tree that would allow people in their mortal bodies to live forever has been denied people (Gen.3:22-24).

No, Adam died in the day he ate of the forbidden fruit, but not physically. It is talking about spiritual death, and that is part of Paul's argument.


There is no mystery about this. Some people die earlier than others but it is not because Adam's sin and death in sin have been imputed to them.

That does not explain why people physically die. Death reigned.....Read it....Scientists cannot explain why people die....The bible does....The wages of sin, singular......is death......Death reigned, even though there was no law to judge an offense, and even though those after Adam had not committed his offense....."In Adam all die." Sin nature...


Do you really believe that there was no "law" between Adam and Moses even though all the people during that time did in fact have the law which is written on their heart, the law of which the conscience bears witness?

Did not say that-you missed Paul's argument.


Romans 5:12 KJV....Details...Through one man, Adam, sin entered the world. Underline sin-singular..... not sins. Are you with me, class? Romans 5:12 KJV does not have individual acts of commission in view.....what is in view is nature/character......not deeds. When Adam sinned, the sin principle, the corrupt decaying principle of sin entered into the humankind. Survey Genesis.....After his own kind... Adam's passed on to his posterity, Seth, us............a body, with hair,...........he likewise passed on the corrupting principle of sin. Sin entered humankind. It always existed.The book does not say that Adam "originated" sin, as the sin principle had already originated prior to Adam. For the Bible says the devil "sinneth from the beginning;"



1 John 3:8 KJV

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

(Another thread-"the beginning was not during Adam, Eve, in the garden....The "gap" doctrine). But, regardless, the beginning was the entrance of sin, before Adam..



"In Adam all die.” In Adam all die. All men inherit corruption from Adam.



Sin-singular. Through/by one man, Uncle Adam, "head" of "The Adams Family," sin entered the world, and the second doctrine, death by sin. We croak, not because you/I commit sins, but because we have in us a corrupt, sin nature. Why do babies die, at age 2 weeks? Has that baby committed any "overt" act of sin? Have they done any fibbing? Stealing? Yet, they die.Why? Why do we? Because they/we are "in Adam." We/they "constitutionally" they sinned in the loins of Adam, inherting that sin principle/nature, and with it the penalty as well=death-spiritual. Memorize the contrast.....Paul's "thus"...In Adam/In Christ....

Why do we sin? Prior to justification, we have no choice.....We sin because we are sinners. I am not a liar, because I lied.....I lied, because I am a liar.....Paul...."Every man a liar....". I thought about lying, before I even committed the overt act.





Psalm 51:5 KJV(discussed)

Psalm 58:3 KJV
The wicked are estranged from the womb:they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Jeremiah 17:9 KJV
The heart is deceitful above all things,and desperately wicked: who can know it?


Job 14:4 KJV
Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.



Romans 5:14....Death reigned,verse 14, from Adam to Moses. No formalized law came, until Moses. If death reigned, did people croak, before Moses? Yes. That is Paul's argument....If death reigned from Adam to Moses, then death is not a result of sins....plural....It's not a result of breaking a command....No law....no transgression.....Sin is not imputed where there is no law...Romans 5:13 KJV. Paul was very careful to emphasis....His "thus"...."Nevertheless:"



13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come

Again....Death is not a result of violating a direct command from God because pre Moses, the law was not there. Read verse 13: says sin can't be charged/reconed/imputed to one's account, when there is no law. How can you break a 55 mile per hour speed limit, if there is no law against it? Paul is arguing.......How can you be guilty for breaking a rule, a transgression, when there's no rule/transgression against it? Right? Thus, Paul is laying out the following logic, being the lawyerly type, probably a former Pharisee: Since you have a period of time from Adam to Moses,where there's no law, and yet death reigns, and people are not dying because they broke a law, then what is it about them that's causing them to croak? Get it? It is not sins, but sin-the sin nature.



Paul is arguing,...underline "Nevertheless:"



13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come


...that during this period, from Adam-Moses, men die not because they do acts of sin, but because they bear a sin corrupting principle within them, as they had not even committed the sin Adam committed....

had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression,


And so people, post Adam-Moses,didn't sin after the similitude of Adam's kind of sin, violating a known revealed law, but everybody croaked. And thus Paul concludes that we croak,not because of acts of sin, sins, but because we bear the sin principle, which ultimately kills us.



Carry on.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Yes, the wages of sin is spiritual death. And the passage is speaking about people receiving those wages when they sin and not because of Adam's sin:
Wrong.....In Adam....In Christ.


You missed Paul's argument, as usual.


Too much meat for you, kid-you cannot bear it.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame

Do you really think that the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorraha, who lived between the time of Adam and Moses, were not judged because of their own sins with what is said in the following passage in view?:

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7).​



were not judged -you

The issue is not judgment-the issue is why do men die?

Sin, not sins.


Slower: The Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins-plural. Sins can be forgiven, even the sins of S&G.


A forgiven thief, murderer....is still a thief, murderer....


Sin, the sin nature, cannot be forgiven. It must be judged...Hence, judgment, of the Saviour, at Calvary, in our stead. The sin nature, who we are, "In Adam." was judged there:

Romans 8:3 KJV

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin(singular-my note), [U]condemned [/U]sin(singular-my note)in the flesh:


Sin(singular) condemned/judged at Calvary. Who we were, "In Adam," was put to death.....The wages of sin is death....


Get it?


The wages of sin....singular....is death...


The inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorraha eventually croaked not because of sins.....But because of sin.
 
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tdhiggins

New member
I don't remember you answering it. Just tell me if you believe that the free gift comes to "all" people or not?



Why would you ask for that since your whole argument is based on the idea that the LORD imputed the sin of Adam to all of his descendants. I see no text in the Scriptures that EXPLICITLY, CLEARLY, and PLAINLY says that. Perhaps you do.

Since you demand that kind of proof then I will wait for that kind of evidence which demonstrates that the LORD imputes the sin of Adam to all of his descendants, especially since the following verses veto that idea:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son"
(Ezek.18:20).​

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin"
(Deut.24:16).​

"But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin"
(2 Chron.25:4).​

If you believe the Scriptures, you would submit to the clear truth within them.

How do those texts relate to Exodus 34:7 - “keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."

There are two types of condemnation spelled out in the Scriptures: 1) we are condemned by our union with Adam, and 2) we are condemned because we committ sins ourselves. Scripture should be read and interpretted in its entirety. You cannot ignore certain texts just because you don’t like them.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Memorize:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son"
(Ezek.18:20).​

Your argument is that all of Adam's descendants bear his iniquity because his sin and death in sin have been imputed to them.
No, kid, you misinterpret the point of Ezekiel 18:20 KJV.

We croak because we are in Adam-sin nature. We did not commit the sin Adam did.....But we would have.....
 
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Danoh

New member
No, Adam died in the day he ate of the forbidden fruit, but not physically. It is talking about spiritual death, and that is part of Paul's argument.



That does not explain why people physically die. Death reigned.....Read it....Scientists cannot explain why people die....The bible does....The wages of sin, singular......is death......Death reigned, even though there was no law to judge an offense, and even though those after Adam had not committed his offense....."In Adam all die." Sin nature...



Did not say that-you missed Paul's argument.


Romans 5:12 KJV....Details...Through one man, Adam, sin entered the world. Underline sin-singular..... not sins. Are you with me, class? Romans 5:12 KJV does not have individual acts of commission in view.....what is in view is nature/character......not deeds. When Adam sinned, the sin principle, the corrupt decaying principle of sin entered into the humankind. Survey Genesis.....After his own kind... Adam's passed on to his posterity, Seth, us............a body, with hair,...........he likewise passed on the corrupting principle of sin. Sin entered humankind. It always existed.The book does not say that Adam "originated" sin, as the sin principle had already originated prior to Adam. For the Bible says the devil "sinneth from the beginning;"



1 John 3:8 KJV

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

(Another thread-"the beginning was not during Adam, Eve, in the garden....The "gap" doctrine). But, regardless, the beginning was the entrance of sin, before Adam..



"In Adam all die.” In Adam all die. All men inherit corruption from Adam.



Sin-singular. Through/by one man, Uncle Adam, "head" of "The Adams Family," sin entered the world, and the second doctrine, death by sin. We croak, not because you/I commit sins, but because we have in us a corrupt, sin nature. Why do babies die, at age 2 weeks? Has that baby committed any "overt" act of sin? Have they done any fibbing? Stealing? Yet, they die.Why? Why do we? Because they/we are "in Adam." We/they "constitutionally" they sinned in the loins of Adam, inherting that sin principle/nature, and with it the penalty as well=death-spiritual. Memorize the contrast.....Paul's "thus"...In Adam/In Christ....

Why do we sin? Prior to justification, we have no choice.....We sin because we are sinners. I am not a liar, because I lied.....I lied, because I am a liar.....Paul...."Every man a liar....". I thought about lying, before I even committed the overt act.





Psalm 51:5 KJV(discussed)

Psalm 58:3 KJV
The wicked are estranged from the womb:they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Jeremiah 17:9 KJV
The heart is deceitful above all things,and desperately wicked: who can know it?


Job 14:4 KJV
Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.



Romans 5:14....Death reigned,verse 14, from Adam to Moses. No formalized law came, until Moses. If death reigned, did people croak, before Moses? Yes. That is Paul's argument....If death reigned from Adam to Moses, then death is not a result of sins....plural....It's not a result of breaking a command....No law....no transgression.....Sin is not imputed where there is no law...Romans 5:13 KJV. Paul was very careful to emphasis....His "thus"...."Nevertheless:"



13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come

Again....Death is not a result of violating a direct command from God because pre Moses, the law was not there. Read verse 13: says sin can't be charged/reconed/imputed to one's account, when there is no law. How can you break a 55 mile per hour speed limit, if there is no law against it? Paul is arguing.......How can you be guilty for breaking a rule, a transgression, when there's no rule/transgression against it? Right? Thus, Paul is laying out the following logic, being the lawyerly type, probably a former Pharisee: Since you have a period of time from Adam to Moses,where there's no law, and yet death reigns, and people are not dying because they broke a law, then what is it about them that's causing them to croak? Get it? It is not sins, but sin-the sin nature.



Paul is arguing,...underline "Nevertheless:"



13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come


...that during this period, from Adam-Moses, men die not because they do acts of sin, but because they bear a sin corrupting principle within them, as they had not even committed the sin Adam committed....

had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression,


And so people, post Adam-Moses,didn't sin after the similitude of Adam's kind of sin, violating a known revealed law, but everybody croaked. And thus Paul concludes that we croak,not because of acts of sin, sins, but because we bear the sin principle, which ultimately kills us.



Carry on.

EXACTLY.

And EXACTLY also - how a thing is studied out.

WHEN a thing is PROPERLY studied out.

WHEN it is...

Now, should the positive of my compliment go to your head, JW, that too only proves just how sound your above post was.

For a thing goes to our head (pride) "because of sin" (singular) "that dwelleth in me."

In that moment, this "temptation" resident "in" our "flesh" - this darned sin nature (singular) has "REVIVED," and we have "died."

Alive unto sin dead unto righteousness, during such moments.

All because of sin (singular).

We're surrounded by it; in this mortal body of sin (singular).

We're talking an ever on going war.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

But for a BUT which is NOW The Believer's.

5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Fascinating - how each individual is driven by this dark life force within through "the DECEITFUL lusts" or desires.

More often then one is consciously aware.

Hence the call to THE BELIEVER...

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

And again, tomorrow, and the day after that.

Until that Blessed Day of that Blessed Hope...

Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Great post, JW.

Rom. 5: 6-8.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
No, Adam died in the day he ate of the forbidden fruit, but not physically. It is talking about spiritual death, and that is part of Paul's argument.

My response was in answer to what you said about infants dying physically:

And yet, they croak. Why?

I told you exactly why infants die physically and it is not because Adam's sin and death have been imputed to him.

That does not explain why people physically die. Death reigned.....Read it....Scientists cannot explain why people die....The bible does....The wages of sin, singular......is death......Death reigned, even though there was no law to judge an offense, and even though those after Adam had not committed his offense....."In Adam all die." Sin nature...

Here is the "context" of the verse which you cite:

"What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:21-23).​

It is easy to see that the spiritual death spoken of in this passage happens because of people's own sins and not because Adam's sin and death in sin has been imputed to them. And since all people die spiritually when they sin then that can only mean that at one time or another all people were alive spiritually. After all, before a person can die spiritually he must first be alive spiritually.

And the only way that all people can be alive spiritually is because all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive. That fact alone destroys the theory of Original sin which teaches that all people emerge from the womb spiritually dead.

Romans 5:12 KJV does not have individual acts of commission.....what is in view is nature/character......not deeds.

Let us begin with a detailed look at Romans 5:12:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned (pas hamartano)"
(Ro.5:12).​

Here Paul repeated the phrase "all have sinned" from earlier in the same epistle:

"For all have sinned (pas hamartano), and come short of the glory of God"
(Ro.3:23).​

Even Reformed theologian Robert Schreiner sees that this is speaking a person's own individual sinning, writing that "5:12cd teaches that death spread to all because all sinned...Paul regularly argues in Romans 5 and 6 that sin begets death, context supports the interpretation, 'and so death spread to all men because all sinned'...to paraphrase: 'death spread to all people because all sinned individually'" [emphasis added] (Thomas R. Schreiner, Adam, the Fall, and Original Sin, 274,280).

Another theologian from the same camp agrees. Douglas J. Moo writes that "Paul certainly uses the verb 'sin' regularly to denote voluntary sinful acts committed by individuals; and this is what most commentators think that this same word, in the same tense as is used here (aorist), designates in 3:23: that all people, 'in their own persons,' commit sins. Probably a majority of contemporary scholars interpret 5:12d, then, to assert that the death of each person (v.12c) is directly caused by that person's own individual sinning" (Douglas J. Moo, "Sin in Paul," in Fallen: A Theology of Sin ed. Christoper W. Morgan and Robert A. Peterson [Wheaton IL: Crossway, 2013], 122-3).

All men inherit corruption from Adam.

That idea is ridiculous because the Scriptures reveal that people corrupt themselves:

"And the LORD said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted themselves; they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image" (Deut.9:12).​

The word "corrupt" means going from a state of being "good" unto one of being "bad." So when a person corrupts himself he goes from a state of "good" unto a state of being "bad."

A person cannot corrupt himself once he is already corrupt but if you are right then we must believe that he can.

What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. We croak, not because you/I commit sins, but because we have in us a corrupt, sin nature.

Again, we croak because all people no longer have access to the very thing which would allow them to live forever--the Tree of Life (Gen.3:22-24).

Now please address the following words of Paul where he makes it plain that personal sins result in death: "What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death."

What kind of death?

Why do babies die, at age 2 weeks? Has that baby committed any "overt" act of sin? Have they done any fibbing? Stealing? Yet, they die.Why?

Because it is appointed that all people die physically (Heb.9:27) and some people die earlier than other people.
 

Danoh

New member
I apologize for any typos, I wrote this ln my phone while trying to get ready for work. That last sentance shluld read “God” instead of “god.”

Apparently, you also wrote that "in" your phone.

:chuckle:

But we all make such mistakes.

All the time.

No biggie.

:thumb:

Rom. 5: 6-8.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Hence the call to THE BELIEVER...

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

A person becomes corrupt when they give in to deceitful lusts. Not corrupt because they emerge from the womb corrupt. And the following words of James certainly demonstrates this fact:

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas. 1:14-15).​

In the book Fallen:A Theology of Sin (a book which defends the theory of Original Sin) David B. Calhoun writes the following commentary about this passage:

"Temptation leads to sin, and, for the unrepentant, sin leads to spiritual death. 'Each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it is conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death' (James 1:14-15). James describes the deadly progression from evil desire, to being dragged away, to enticement, to conception, to birth and then finally to death. This sixfold progression proceeds from the mind, to the affections, to the will, to outward action, and to spiritual death" (David B. Calhoun, "Sin and Temptation" in Fallen: A Theology of Sin, 264).

Since all people die spiritually when they sin that must mean that all people, at one time or another, are spiritually alive. And that can only happen because all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

Just another dagger into the heart of the of the theory of Original Sin.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" (Ezek.18:20).​

All I hear are the crickets!

Why should anyone believe that the sin of Adam and his death in sin has been imputed to his own sons since Ezekiel 18:20 makes it plain that will not happen?

Crickets!
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Jerry, I keep on asking you for the same thing and you are unable to provide it. Justifications comes through union with Christ which comes by faith. This is EXPLICITLY said in the Scriptures, meaning the Scriptures CLEARLY AND PLAINLY say that one must have faith in order to be justified. Now. Please show me ONE VERSE that CLEARLY, PLAINLY, and EXPLICITLY says that I have to do ANYTHING in order to be united with Adam.
He has seen the answers before but continues to ignore them:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...mans-5-12-18&p=4981681&viewfull=1#post4981681

AMR
 

genuineoriginal

New member
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" (Ezek.18:20).​

All I hear are the crickets!

Why should anyone believe that the sin of Adam and his death in sin has been imputed to his own sons since Ezekiel 18:20 makes it plain that will not happen?
The sins of the father was imputed to the sons prior to Ezekiel 18.

Exodus 34:7
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
He has seen the answers before but continues to ignore them:

I answered on post #123 on this thread. Since you believe in the theory of Original Sin then please tell me why the following words do not contradict the teaching that Adam's sin and his death in sin has been imputed to his sons?:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son"
(Ezek.18:20).​
 
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