ECT The most accurate understanding of why the need for the New Birth from above

Cross Reference · Feb 27, 2018

. . . . is for us to understand why faith is not a gift of God for understanding Ephesians 2:8,9.

Substitution

"He hath made Him to be sin for us, … that we might be made the righteousness of God."… 2 Cor. 5:21.

The modern view of the death of Jesus is that He died for our sins out of sympathy. The New Testament view is that He bore our sin not by sympathy, but by identification. He was made to be sin. Our sins are removed because of the death of Jesus, and the explanation of His death is His obedience to His Father, not His sympathy with us. We are acceptable with God not because we have obeyed, or because we have promised to give up things, but because of the death of Christ, and in no other way. We say that Jesus Christ came to reveal the Fatherhood of God, the loving-kindness of God; the New Testament says He came to bear away the sin of the world. The revelation of His Father is to those to whom He has been introduced as Saviour: Jesus Christ never spoke of Himself to the world as one Who revealed the Father, but as a stumbling-block (see John 15:22–24 ). John 14:9 was spoken to His disciples.

That Christ died for me, therefore I go scot free, is never taught in the New Testament. What is taught in the New Testament is that “He died for all” (not—He died my death), and that by identification with His death I can be freed from sin, and have imparted to me His very righteousness. The substitution taught in the New Testament is twofold: “He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.” It is not Christ for me unless I am determined to have Christ formed in me.

Oswald Chambers

Jerry Shugart · Feb 27, 2018

Cross Reference said:
That Christ died for me, therefore I go scot free, is never taught in the New Testament. What is taught in the New Testament is that “He died for all” (not—He died my death)

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Ro.6:3-4).

The moment a person believes the gospel he is baptized by one Spirit into the Body of Christ and then His death becomes our death.

Interplanner · Feb 28, 2018

Cross Reference said:
. . . . is for us to understand why faith is not a gift of God for understanding Ephesians 2:8,9.

Substitution

"He hath made Him to be sin for us, … that we might be made the righteousness of God."… 2 Cor. 5:21.

The modern view of the death of Jesus is that He died for our sins out of sympathy. The New Testament view is that He bore our sin not by sympathy, but by identification. He was made to be sin. Our sins are removed because of the death of Jesus, and the explanation of His death is His obedience to His Father, not His sympathy with us. We are acceptable with God not because we have obeyed, or because we have promised to give up things, but because of the death of Christ, and in no other way. We say that Jesus Christ came to reveal the Fatherhood of God, the loving-kindness of God; the New Testament says He came to bear away the sin of the world. The revelation of His Father is to those to whom He has been introduced as Saviour: Jesus Christ never spoke of Himself to the world as one Who revealed the Father, but as a stumbling-block (see John 15:22–24 ). John 14:9 was spoken to His disciples.

That Christ died for me, therefore I go scot free, is never taught in the New Testament. What is taught in the New Testament is that “He died for all” (not—He died my death), and that by identification with His death I can be freed from sin, and have imparted to me His very righteousness. The substitution taught in the New Testament is twofold: “He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.” It is not Christ for me unless I am determined to have Christ formed in me.

Oswald Chambers

I don't think he's got the idea, especially at the end. We don't just determine to have Christ formed in us; it develops by God the more we realize the stature of the Gospel event. Gal 4's 'until Christ is formed in you' is much more about them absorbing that Christ is Messiah as promised, than individual behavior. Judaism had a competing Messiah, and Paul sought to displace it.

The love of God in Christ is compelling (2 Cor 5:14) because he died the penalty for sin for all. That is the power of his kingdom, the power of his love. People don't truly own themselves any more, except by misunderstanding and delusion.

meshak · Feb 28, 2018

The most accurate understanding of why the need for the New Birth from above

Jesus expects His followers to be like Him, meaning we have to accept Him as our Lord and Savior, abandon our fleshly mind and change to His ways.

If we are not born again, we cannot do that.

It is just simple logic.

peace and love in Christ.

marhig · Feb 28, 2018

Jerry Shugart said:
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Ro.6:3-4).

The moment a person believes the gospel he is baptized by one Spirit into the Body of Christ and then His death becomes our death.

Hi, we are not baptised unto Jesus death until we are blessed with the Holy Spirit in God's time, it's not by just saying "I believe" like many people seem to think. We first have to repent and obey Jesus then once we are blessed with the Spirit, God puts us to death by circumcising our hearts of the lusts of the flesh. The disciples didn't receive the spirit immediately, they had to wait on God. And those who are walking in the Spirit, will produce the fruit of the Spirit, we'll know them by their fruits.

Acts 5

And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

The following is being baptised into Jesus death and then, when God blesses us with the Spirit, God covers us and takes us where we wouldn't go, and as he does this, we will then deny the flesh to please him and live by his will and reach out to others not putting ourselves before God and I doing so, we glorify God because others will see the love of the father and the life of Christ in and through us.

John 21

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

This is the death that Jesus came to taste for every man, and in doing so, he was able to reconcile as many who would believe in him by the gospel of God, by the word of reconciliation. And Jesus didn't sin and was dead to his flesh always, always denying Satan, never letting him in, never sinning. But we are sinners and we have to die to self and then once we are dead to self, we will walk in newness of life, buried with Christ turning from the world to live by the will of God and Christs life will cover us as his life grows stronger in us, as our old life is put to death by the power of the Spirit. And thus our old man is put to death so that Christ can live. And then we are truly following Jesus, because he was dead to self will and lived by the will of God and we also will live by the will of God as he did when we are dead to self through Christ.

jamie · Mar 8, 2018

Jerry Shugart said:
The moment a person believes the gospel he is baptized by one Spirit into the Body of Christ and then His death becomes our death.

Paul taught differently, he said we are saved by grace through faith, which is the evidence (demonstration) of belief.

DAN P · Mar 9, 2018

Cross Reference said:
. . . . is for us to understand why faith is not a gift of God for understanding Ephesians 2:8,9.

Substitution

"He hath made Him to be sin for us, … that we might be made the righteousness of God."… 2 Cor. 5:21.

The modern view of the death of Jesus is that He died for our sins out of sympathy. The New Testament view is that He bore our sin not by sympathy, but by identification. He was made to be sin. Our sins are removed because of the death of Jesus, and the explanation of His death is His obedience to His Father, not His sympathy with us. We are acceptable with God not because we have obeyed, or because we have promised to give up things, but because of the death of Christ, and in no other way. We say that Jesus Christ came to reveal the Fatherhood of God, the loving-kindness of God; the New Testament says He came to bear away the sin of the world. The revelation of His Father is to those to whom He has been introduced as Saviour: Jesus Christ never spoke of Himself to the world as one Who revealed the Father, but as a stumbling-block (see John 15:22–24 ). John 14:9 was spoken to His disciples.

That Christ died for me, therefore I go scot free, is never taught in the New Testament. What is taught in the New Testament is that “He died for all” (not—He died my death), and that by identification with His death I can be freed from sin, and have imparted to me His very righteousness. The substitution taught in the New Testament is twofold: “He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.” It is not Christ for me unless I am determined to have Christ formed in me.

Oswald Chambers

Hi and when you explain Gal 2:20 will make sense to those reading what you wrote ?

When Jesus died of the cross all that believe in Rom 10:9 and when Jerry quoted Rom 6:3 !!

dan p

Cross Reference · Mar 11, 2018

Sorry but, by your understanding, I don't see where you say you resurrected with Him.

Cross Reference · Mar 11, 2018

Jerry Shugart said:
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Ro.6:3-4).

The moment a person believes the gospel he is baptized by one Spirit into the Body of Christ and then His death becomes our death.

Sorry but, by your understanding, I don't read where you say you resurrected with Him.

Jerry Shugart · Mar 11, 2018

marhig said:
Acts 5

And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Another meaning for the Greek word translated "obey" is "hearken unto" and that is the way that word is translated later in the same book, Acts 27:21.

And that meaning fits perefectly with all of the teaching found in the Bible which declares that people sre saved when they believe, as witnessed by the answer Paul gave here:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

If the meaning which you want to place on the Greek word at Acts 5:32 is "obey" then Paul would have answered by saying, "Believe and obey the Lord and you will be saved."

But that is not how he answered so the obvious meaning of the Greek word at Acts 5:32 is to hearken unto.

Jerry Shugart · Mar 11, 2018

Cross Reference said:
Sorry but, by your understanding, I don't read where you say you resurrected with Him.

When a person believes he is baptized into the Body of Christ and when that happens he is baptized into the Lord Jesus' death and is "raised up" together with Christ (Eph.2:6).

Cross Reference · Mar 12, 2018

Jerry Shugart said:
When a person believes he is baptized into the Body of Christ and when that happens he is baptized into the Lord Jesus' death and is "raised up" together with Christ (Eph.2:6).

But yu don't read like you know Him. Such an ambition as a babe in Christ is what is inimated being "raised with Him" means and He says repent; put off thhe old and put on the new. Where is the new from you that indicate you have been born again. BTW, Those learning to be faithful in Christ is who Paul was referring to. cf Eph 1:1 KJV.

marhig · Mar 12, 2018

Jerry Shugart said:
Another meaning for the Greek word translated "obey" is "hearken unto" and that is the way that word is translated later in the same book, Acts 27:21.

And that meaning fits perefectly with all of the teaching found in the Bible which declares that people sre saved when they believe, as witnessed by the answer Paul gave here:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

If the meaning which you want to place on the Greek word at Acts 5:32 is "obey" then Paul would have answered by saying, "Believe and obey the Lord and you will be saved."

But that is not how he answered so the obvious meaning of the Greek word at Acts 5:32 is to hearken unto.

Hi Jerry, I don't see initial salvation as eternal salvation. But rather once we truly believe and repent, then our past sins that we did in ignorance are forgiven and from then on we are to turn from sin, and once we are blessed with the Spirit, then we are being saved daily from this world as we walk in the Spirit and the Spirit guides and teaches us and helps us to overcome our flesh daily. We are then to abide in God's goodness and live by his will, and endure to the end and keep our faith regardless of what we go through in our lives.

We can say that we are eternally saved by just saying "I believe" but that's not enough, to truly believe is to be a doer of the word and live by the will of God and obey him. And as we turn from sin, the Spirit will be helping us to cleanse our hearts, circumcising our hearts of the works of the flesh and replacing them with the fruits of the Spirit as we walk in the Spirit, in Christ. Our whole nature should be changing to be more like that of Jesus once we are born of God. And when we are sealed by the Spirit, Satan can't touch us as long as we are living by God's will and abiding in his goodness.

Philippians 2

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

But we can fall if we turn back again, and we can turn back to our fleshly ways and disobey God, if we fall through our lusts after being tempted, we have freewill, but if we continually do this, then there is no way people can say they are being saved. We can't go around saying we're saved, Jesus has done it all for us, and disobeying God in our lives daily and loving our flesh before him. We all sin, and we will make mistakes, but to continually wilfully sin isn't living by God's will. And Jesus said, that those who live by the will of God are those who enter into the kingdom of heaven.

If we are truly being saved then we will be overcoming our flesh by the power of the Spirit, and we will be turning away from sin and living by the will of God. It should be near impossible to wilfully sin, our conscience should be picking us always and we should be listening as God guides is away from living wrong.

How can anyone be saved who are living wrong before God, just because people say they are saved, doesn't mean they are. Those truly being saved will have the life of Christ in their hearts, and they will have God's love and goodness and they will be bringing forth the fruits of the Spirit daily as their flesh dies and they die to self will, to live according to God's will. Many profess to be saved with their lips, but their hearts are far from God and they love this world and all that goes with it. The love of the world and the flesh is not of God, this world belongs to the prince of this world and the power of darkness. And I don't mean the natural world, but rather the ways of it and the lusts of the flesh.

If Christ is made manifest within our hearts, then he will be willing us to live right, and the Holy Spirit will be guiding us in truth and righteousness and as we are being cleansed we should be being made just before God through Christ.

Also, this is one verse that shows us that eternal salvation doesn't come from just believing.

Romans 13

And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

meshak · Mar 12, 2018

Yes, salvation is not one time confession. It is a life long endeavor until the end.

One time confession gospel is false gospel, and lead people to astray.

unfortunately that's the majority of church follow.

It is so sad situation.

Jerry Shugart · Mar 12, 2018

marhig said:
Hi Jerry, I don't see initial salvation as eternal salvation.

The Lord Jesus does see it as eternal salvation, as evidenced by His following words:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

marhig · Mar 13, 2018

Jerry Shugart said:
The Lord Jesus does see it as eternal salvation, as evidenced by His following words:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

Jesus also said this,

Matthew 7

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So not everyone who says they believe will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but those who do the will of the father. And we will know them by their fruits. They won't be living wrong before God and bringing forth thistles and thorns, (which is the works of the flesh) from within their hearts, instead they will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit, and bring the love of God and life of Christ to others they meet.

Many think they are saved by saying "I believe" and they think that's it. But true believers live by the word of God and they are doers of the word and not hearers only. And you'll know those being saved as they will be overcoming their flesh and this world will mean nothing to them, and their fruits will be plentiful through Christ.

Btw, the Holy Spirit is eternal life, and once we have him in our hearts we are brought from death to life. But that doesn't mean that we can't turn away from God and lust after the flesh again, we can. As long as we remain in God's goodness he will keep us and seal us, but if we turn back again he will let us go. He won't stay with workers of iniquity, who purposely sin, he will depart from them.

Jerry Shugart · Mar 13, 2018

marhig said:
Jesus also said this...

Nothing you quoted or said changes in anyway what the Lord Jesus said here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

Nothing which you said changed the meaning of the following words:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).

Nothing which you said changes the meaning of His words here:

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).

Here is what the Lord Jesus said and it will certainly apply to you if you don't start to believe what He said:

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (Jn.12:48).

By not believing His words you are rejecting Him and you will indeed be judged in the future for your unbelief. Those who do believe His words will not be judged:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

marhig · Mar 13, 2018

Jerry Shugart said:
Nothing you quoted or said changes in anyway what the Lord Jesus said here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

Nothing which you said changed the meaning of the following words:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).

Nothing which you said changes the meaning of His words here:

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).

Here is what the Lord Jesus said and it will certainly apply to you if you don't start to believe what He said:

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (Jn.12:48).

By not believing His words you are rejecting Him and you will indeed be judged in the future for your unbelief. Those who do believe His words will not be judged:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

And Jerry, nothing you've said changes what Jesus said in the verses I have quoted. And what he says will apply to all of us.

Eternal life comes from God, and the eternal life that we receive in this life time is the blessing of the Holy Spirit who brings us from death to life. But we are to remain in God's goodness and turn from sin for God to stay with us, God won't stay with someone who loves the flesh and world before him.

Even Jesus himself said, that the father never leaves him, because he always does what pleases him. So, he can leave us and turn us over to our reprobate minds as seen in Romans 1.

I know in my heart, that I must live right before God and not take him for granted or take him lightly, he's a loving God and father but he won't be mocked. I've seen people who say they believe in God and that they are saved and going to heaven, say they are Christians, yet they do things that the Bible says is wrong, and they are of the opinion that they'll be ok regardless. I know only God can judge the hearts of all of us, but I'd be too scared to do those things, knowing that it's wrong before God, and my conscience would prick me to the hilt. And I know that if I keep wilfully sinning that I'll suffer for it and I'll get trouble in my life. And it says in the Bible that God is no respecter of persons, so it doesn't matter how saved we think we are, if we go against God once we know the truth, we get trouble. And I've experienced this in my own life too.

I believe that what we do in this lifetime comes back on us, whether it be good or bad. And we are judged accordingly.

DAN P · Mar 13, 2018

Cross Reference said:
Sorry but, by your understanding, I don't see where you say you resurrected with Him.

Hi and it is in Rom 6:4 and 5 , says it all !!

dan p

Cross Reference · Apr 2, 2018

DAN P said:
Hi and it is in Rom 6:4 and 5 , says it all !!

dan p

Naah. That "we" ain't you.

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