ST. JOHN 11:26

What do you think of this verse? How are we to understand it?

ST. JOHN 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

ST. JOHN 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
ST. JOHN 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
ST. JOHN 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Jacob said:

What do you think of this verse? How are we to understand it?

ST. JOHN 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

ST. JOHN 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
ST. JOHN 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
ST. JOHN 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

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Abraham believed that God raises the dead (Heb11:19KJV). Here, Christ Jesus says, "I Am the resurrection" (Jn11:25KJV). Saving faith is believing that Jesus is risen from the dead (Ro10:9KJV).

Idolater said:

Abraham believed that God raises the dead (Heb11:19KJV). Here, Christ Jesus says, "I Am the resurrection" (Jn11:25KJV). Saving faith is believing that Jesus is risen from the dead (Ro10:9KJV).

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What do you think it means,

"whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

Jacob said:

What do you think it means,

"whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

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Luke 20:35-36 KJV
(35) But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
(36) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

"Any more" - they died once already in order to reach the state of resurrection, did they not?

Thus it means that they shall never die at a time in the future, that time being the blessed resurrection of the dead. It means that they shall not die and that the "not dying" (immortality, eternal life) shall be established at a future time. It does not mean "they will never die" as if that immortality and eternal life was already a present condition.

Revelation 20:6 KJV
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rosenritter said:

Luke 20:35-36 KJV
(35) But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
(36) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

"Any more" - they died once already in order to reach the state of resurrection, did they not?

Thus it means that they shall never die at a time in the future, that time being the blessed resurrection of the dead. It means that they shall not die and that the "not dying" (immortality, eternal life) shall be established at a future time. It does not mean "they will never die" as if that immortality and eternal life was already a present condition.

Revelation 20:6 KJV
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

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I hope that what I have to offer does not bring more confusion.

1 CORINTHIANS 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Thank you for your contribution to this thread. Your insight is much appreciated.

Jacob said:

I hope that what I have to offer does not bring more confusion.

1 CORINTHIANS 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Thank you for your contribution to this thread. Your insight is much appreciated.

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Hi Jacob. Can you explain how your two verses apply to your topic? And why it might bring confusion?

Thanks,
Derf

Derf said:

Hi Jacob. Can you explain how your two verses apply to your topic? And why it might bring confusion?

Thanks,
Derf

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I guess it is that either all people die or not all people die or both. The confusion might be that the context does not necessarily agree with the contribution. Does it help with my original statement? What clarification can be brought or wrought and what can you add?

Derf said:

Hi Jacob. Can you explain how your two verses apply to your topic? And why it might bring confusion?

Thanks,
Derf

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Before the resurrection "we shall never die any more" is a declared promise to be fulfilled in the future. "We shall never die any more" is fulfilled upon the resurrection of the saints unto eternal life.

Jacob said:

I guess it is that either all people die or not all people die or both. The confusion might be that the context does not necessarily agree with the contribution. Does it help with my original statement? What clarification can be brought or wrought and what can you add?

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I would think that since it's the same topic from the same chapter by the same author, it means that in general
a subset of people who die will live again, and people who last (are still alive) until Jesus returns won't die, but will be translated into whatever form everyone else will take at that time. Their bodies being changed, it will be as if they die and are resurrected immediately--no time for them to sleep.

I'm not completely certain that all who die are not resurrected in somewhat the same kind of form, though at different times (1st vs 2nd resurrection). And I wonder if perhaps because they can't die again, at least in the same way, even the damned will live though they died. And if the same words from Jesus applies to them--that they can't die again, then it explains the misery and eternality of hell.

This would make sense if Jesus defeated death, which he did or will depending on how you look at it. The "second death", then, would not be of the same type as the first death. It could well be a living death--a state where the person still has life, but is completely removed from all good that God has for those who accept Him as Lord.

Rosenritter said:

Before the resurrection "we shall never die any more" is a declared promise to be fulfilled in the future. "We shall never die any more" is fulfilled upon the resurrection of the saints unto eternal life.

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While I think you are somewhat right here, I wonder at the use of the term "sleep" for those who have died. Jesus clearly presented Lazarus state as "not unto death", as "sleep", and then as "dead".

4 When Jesus heard [that], he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby. ... 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. ... 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. [Jhn 11:4, 11, 13-14 KJV]

The terms "sleep" and "death" are used both synonymously and antonymously (is that a word?) in the same passage. Which makes me wonder if "sleep" death is not the same as "death" death. One possibility, of course, is that one kind might be permanent and the other not. But that doesn't fit the idea in Revelation that all the dead are eventually raised.

Derf said:

While I think you are somewhat right here, I wonder at the use of the term "sleep" for those who have died. Jesus clearly presented Lazarus state as "not unto death", as "sleep", and then as "dead".

4 When Jesus heard [that], he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby. ... 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. ... 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. [Jhn 11:4, 11, 13-14 KJV]

The terms "sleep" and "death" are used both synonymously and antonymously (is that a word?) in the same passage. Which makes me wonder if "sleep" death is not the same as "death" death. One possibility, of course, is that one kind might be permanent and the other not. But that doesn't fit the idea in Revelation that all the dead are eventually raised.

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When one is "asleep" it implies that one shall also awake. When used as a metaphor for death, the word "sleep" is used to point to the resurrection of the dead. Thus the patriarchs and kings (both righteous and wicked) are said to "sleep with their fathers" because there is a future resurrection of the dead, both the just and the unjust.

Daniel 12:2 KJV
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Acts 24:14-15 KJV
(14) But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
(15) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

When Jesus spoke of the girl that had just died and said that she sleeps it was for the very reason that he was about to bring her back to life himself. Likewise for Lazarus, who had already died for the express purpose that Jesus would raise him from the dead.

Is this symbol used consistently? I think so. You will never see "sleep" used in reference to the second death because the second death is an eternal punishment from which there is no more resurrection unto life or conscious sensibility. All death is death, but the first death (from which there is a resurrection) can also be referred to as sleep. The second death (from which there is no resurrection) can never be called "sleep."

Derf said:

I would think that since it's the same topic from the same chapter by the same author, it means that in general
a subset of people who die will live again, and people who last (are still alive) until Jesus returns won't die, but will be translated into whatever form everyone else will take at that time. Their bodies being changed, it will be as if they die and are resurrected immediately--no time for them to sleep.

I'm not completely certain that all who die are not resurrected in somewhat the same kind of form, though at different times (1st vs 2nd resurrection). And I wonder if perhaps because they can't die again, at least in the same way, even the damned will live though they died. And if the same words from Jesus applies to them--that they can't die again, then it explains the misery and eternality of hell.

This would make sense if Jesus defeated death, which he did or will depending on how you look at it. The "second death", then, would not be of the same type as the first death. It could well be a living death--a state where the person still has life, but is completely removed from all good that God has for those who accept Him as Lord.

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Interesting thoughts. I can't remember a second resurrection, but I do have thoughts about a second death. I believe that a person cannto come back from a second death, though I am not exactly sure why I believe that.

Jacob said:

I guess it is that either all people die or not all people die or both. The confusion might be that the context does not necessarily agree with the contribution. Does it help with my original statement? What clarification can be brought or wrought and what can you add?

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I believe 1 Corinthians is directed to believers, meaning, all believers (all found in Christ) will be made alive. However, all who are in Adam (all not found in Christ) will die. At least that is the way I understand it.

lifeisgood said:

I believe 1 Corinthians is directed to believers, meaning, all believers (all found in Christ) will be made alive. However, all who are in Adam (all not found in Christ) will die. At least that is the way I understand it.

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It does say that in Adam all die. What does this mean?

Does it say all believers will be made alive? What does it say and what does it mean?

Jacob said:

It does say that in Adam all die. What does this mean?

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It means that all who reject Jesus Christ and His perfect, atoning, vicarious, sacrificial, completed/finished work on the Cross of Calvary, will die exactly as Adam did (lost). There is no mention in the Bible anywhere that Adam died saved. Adam is not mentioned in Hebrews 11. It means that all who are in Adam reject God. That simple.

Jacob said:

Does it say all believers will be made alive? What does it say and what does it mean?

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It means that all who accept Jesus Christ and His perfect, atoning, vicarious, sacrificial, completed/finished work on the Cross of Calvary, will live forever because all believers are in Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit for we are His temple (1 Cor. 6:19).

Jacob said:

Interesting thoughts. I can't remember a second resurrection, but I do have thoughts about a second death. I believe that a person cannto come back from a second death, though I am not exactly sure why I believe that.

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Rev 20 talks of the "first" resurrection:
[Rev 20:4 KJV] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[Rev 20:5 KJV] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

The need to designate something as "first" would suggest at least one more to come, and a second is also mentioned in Rev 20:5, in the first sentence: "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

It is described in detail in Rev 20:12-13:
[Rev 20:12 KJV] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[Rev 20:13 KJV] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

These are called "the dead", which is an interesting phrase, if they experienced a "resurrection". But I don't think anything else fits the idea of a second "resurrection".

Jacob said:

Interesting thoughts. I can't remember a second resurrection, but I do have thoughts about a second death. I believe that a person cannto come back from a second death, though I am not exactly sure why I believe that.

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On your second point--whether a person can come back from a second death--I expect those that Elijah, Elisha, Jesus, Peter, and Paul raised from the dead experienced a second death but will also experience a second resurrection.

But I don't think that counts as THE second death mentioned in Rev 20. That second death is described as something that sounds less like "death" and more like "torment without end". But it's participants are the ones that aren't found in the book of life, so it does seem like those who are resurrected can die a second time, just not in the same way.

And I agree that I don't see any hint of a recovery/resurrection from that second death.

lifeisgood said:

It means that all who reject Jesus Christ and His perfect, atoning, vicarious, sacrificial, completed/finished work on the Cross of Calvary, will die exactly as Adam did (lost). There is no mention in the Bible anywhere that Adam died saved. Adam is not mentioned in Hebrews 11. It means that all who are in Adam reject God. That simple.



It means that all who accept Jesus Christ and His perfect, atoning, vicarious, sacrificial, completed/finished work on the Cross of Calvary, will live forever because all believers are in Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit for we are His temple (1 Cor. 6:19).

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I do not know everything about Adam in the Bible. But now, what do you think about the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked the just and the unjust and being judged after death or not if you are a believer? What can we say or know is true? What can we say or know to be true? For example, is there a resurrection of the righteous a first resurrection and a general resurrection in the future perhaps? How is it that the wicked will be resurrected and what does it mean?

Derf said:

Rev 20 talks of the "first" resurrection:
[Rev 20:4 KJV] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[Rev 20:5 KJV] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

The need to designate something as "first" would suggest at least one more to come, and a second is also mentioned in Rev 20:5, in the first sentence: "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

It is described in detail in Rev 20:12-13:
[Rev 20:12 KJV] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[Rev 20:13 KJV] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

These are called "the dead", which is an interesting phrase, if they experienced a "resurrection". But I don't think anything else fits the idea of a second "resurrection".

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So this 'second' resurrection is a thousand years after the first resurrection. Are they believers 'both times'? Etc....

Derf said:

On your second point--whether a person can come back from a second death--I expect those that Elijah, Elisha, Jesus, Peter, and Paul raised from the dead experienced a second death but will also experience a second resurrection.

But I don't think that counts as THE second death mentioned in Rev 20. That second death is described as something that sounds less like "death" and more like "torment without end". But it's participants are the ones that aren't found in the book of life, so it does seem like those who are resurrected can die a second time, just not in the same way.

And I agree that I don't see any hint of a recovery/resurrection from that second death.

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Now you have me thinking! For of Jesus it is said that He will never die again. And presumably Lazarus could would or did. However, I do not know well enough in this. I don't know for certain about those you are speaking of, what you are saying.