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Thread: The Eternal Purpose of creation !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Something to know about the Purpose of God ! That which is God's Eternal Purpose Eph 3:11

    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    Ecclesiastes 3:1

    To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

    It is not like how it is with us, for we know it not until it cometh to past in time, but not so with the Eternal God, for it forever remaineth a constant present before Him because of His Eternalality, So it is He comprehends things outside of the limitations of time, which is impossible for any other to do; So we read in Ecclesiastes 3:15

    15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

    Which means, what is now was before in the decrees and purpose of God, in the eternal arrangements of heaven !

    Amen. Our Father is the Eternal Present!

    The natural man cannot comprehend the Truth that God decreed and determined everything before time
    in His Eternal Purpose (2 Tim. 1:9 KJV). And so, they continue to strive with Him, and foolishly insist on
    working out their own salvation plan, but in vain.

    Man will be required to acknowledge this Greatness of God in the Judgment !

    Most assuredly; and all to, and for, His Glory !

    ~~~~~
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    Why Adam must sin !

    Adam must sin for the simple fact that this World was Created for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus, Its called the Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph 3:11

    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    In this, everything was made or created for Christ Jesus Per Col 1:16

    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Adam was Created for Him, Jesus Christ was the First and Primary cause why Adam was Created.

    Again not only was all things made by but for Him, the Earth was Established and founded in Wisdom Prov 3:19

    The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

    Christ is the Power and Wisdom of God 1 Cor 1:24

    24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

    When Adam was formed and placed in the Earth, it was Very Good, for he was made according to the Infinite Wisdom of God and in the best possible state in execution for the accomplishment of the Work of Redemption Christ was set up unto from Eternity, Christ had an Eye to that in these Words leading to the Cross Jn 17:4

    4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    The Earth here is that same one of Prov 3:19

    19 The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

    That Work that the Father gave Him to do was that of Redemption, for Redemption and Wisdom go together 1 Cor 1:30

    30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

    When God finished Creation Gen 1-2, hence all things had been made in the best possible state that Divine Wisdom could contrive, to expedite the Cross Work of the Lord Jesus Christ;

    And so all men in Adam from the very beginning were made for Jesus Christ and a Redemptive Purpose that would magnify the Grace and Wisdom of God Eph 2:7

    7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

    Eph 3:8-11

    8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    You see that in Eph 3:8 ? In Adam's Creation God had an Eye to the Preaching of the Gospel to the Gentiles of the Unsearchable Riches of Christ !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Why Adam must sin ! 2

    Adam must sin according to being made for the Lord Jesus Christ and His Eternal Purpose of Redemption, for all things, including Adam and those in him were made by and for the Lord Jesus Christ Col 1:16 !

    Also according to the Divine Purpose Adam must be given a Law in order for him to Transgress the Command of God, for if he would have obeyed the law or command, then that would have been counter to God's Purpose in Christ, whereas Christ had already been constituted the Lamb slain from the foundation Rev 13:8

    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Also 1 Pet 1:18-20

    18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

    19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    Yes, the Redeeming blood of Christ was foreordained before the foundation, hence before Adam was Created, who can deny that ?

    If Adam would have rendered perfect obedience and gained Eternal Life, that would have defeated the Eternal Purpose of creating all things for Jesus Christ.

    Scripture does declare that Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, before it began, and that all things were made by Him and for Him Col 1:16 as He was before all things Col 1:17, then all things were made by Him and for Him in that Capacity of being slain before the foundation !

    Thats why Adam must sin, and transgress the Law of God, for in the Eternal Purpose of God, He had already been wounded for our transgressions Isa 53:5

    But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    The wounded for our transgressions is the same as the being the slain Lamb from the foundation !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Eph 3:7-11

    ..... God has sovereignly controlled the world from its beginning, ....and.....
    All that happens in this world,...... which is both good and evil is included. All has been ordained by God.....
    I show a definition from
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ordain#.

    transitive verb
    1: to invest officially (as by the laying on of hands) with ministerial or priestly authority


    2a : to establish or order by appointment, decree, or law : enact <we the people do ordain and establish this Constitution United States Constitution>
    b : destine, foreordain
    intransitive verb
    : to issue an order



    You use the word "ordained" to say that God ordained evil. Do you agree with this definition of "ordained"?

    question: Where did God get the evil He ordained?


    Looking forward to your answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post
    I show a definition from
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ordain#.

    transitive verb
    1: to invest officially (as by the laying on of hands) with ministerial or priestly authority


    2a : to establish or order by appointment, decree, or law : enact <we the people do ordain and establish this Constitution United States Constitution>
    b : destine, foreordain
    intransitive verb
    : to issue an order



    You use the word "ordained" to say that God ordained evil. Do you agree with this definition of "ordained"?

    question: Where did God get the evil He ordained?


    Looking forward to your answer.
    You quoted from my OP and then evaded the whole thing besides that one quote, so please go back to the OP where you got the quote from and then review with me all the points I made and point out the logical conclusions I derived, even though you may disagree with them, then I will answer that question !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    You quoted from my OP and then evaded the whole thing besides that one quote, so please go back to the OP where you got the quote from and then review with me all the points I made and point out the logical conclusions I derived, even though you may disagree with them, then I will answer that question !
    Sorry; didn't mean to evade anything. I think I have read all the points you made. You just pointed out the logical conclusions you derived; however, all of our logic is not the same; hence not all our conclusions are the same.

    Just wondering if you could help me, as one of the elect, understand the character of God as you understand it. You said in your post that God ordained evil. Isn't that your logical conclusion?

    Just an honest question. My logical mind asks, "Where did God get the evil, which you concluded, He ordained?"

    If your logical conclusion is right, you have no reason not to answer; aren't you also seeking to understand the character of God? And why did you answer me with an attitude?

    If your logical conclusion might be wrong, don't you want to find out? If I'm wrong about my logical conclusions about the character of God, I certainly want to find out before I see Him face to face.

    According to your logical conclusion, where did God get the evil, which according to your logical conclusion, He ordained?

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    blackb

    Sorry; didn't mean to evade anything
    But you did ! so please go back to the OP where you got the quote from and then review with me all the points I made and point out the logical conclusions I derived, even though you may disagree with them, then I will answer that question !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    blackb



    But you did ! so please go back to the OP where you got the quote from and then review with me all the points I made and point out the logical conclusions I derived, even though you may disagree with them, then I will answer that question !
    No. I didn't evade anything. You posted that your logical conclusion was that God ordained everything, including evil. Reread what you wrote. Where did God get the evil that He ordained? And again, why did you answer me with an attitude? It makes it seem like your on the defensive. You don't need to be defensive; only honest. Honesty always leads toward truth.

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    blackb

    No. I didn't evade anything.
    Yes you did, and presently still are !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    blackb



    Yes you did, and presently still are !
    Why do you continue to have an attitude? Are you angry? Don't you love me?
    I asked an honest answer and you write back with exclamation points.


    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Eph 3:7-11

    7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

    8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

    9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    Col 1:14-16

    14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    The creation of the world was Soterilogical and Redemptive for all intents and purposes..

    Gen 1:1

    1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    This is where God begins to manifest a Divine Eternal Purpose, which He eons afore time, purposed in Himself, the Triune God..

    This Eternal Purpose was predicated upon God manifesting His redemptive [from sin] wisdom of His Chosen People, the Vessels of Mercy Rom 9:23..

    Hence from all eternity God, That the world He created through Jesus Christ Eph 3:9 would be for the display of His manifold wisdom and grace in the redemption of Chosen lost sinners. Eph 3:10

    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    For the execution and accomplishment of this Eternal Purpose, God has sovereignly controlled the world from its beginning, and will continue until its consummation, and time will be no more.

    All that happens in this world, mysteriously has Soteriological and or Redemptive meaning, that which is both good and evil is included. All has been ordained by God and serves to operate into the displaying the manifold Wisdom of God in the Salvation or Redemption of the Church and His Glorification Through Jesus Christ !


    Is this what I'm evading? Above is your whole quote. Now will you tell; where did the evil come from that was ordained by God? I'm not saying the evil of which you speak wasn't ordained by God. I'm simply asking a very honest question; where did the evil come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Is God the Author of Sin ?

    Yes, most certainly He is
    , However that's not to say He is the doer of sin Himself, He did not Himself commit sin [which is impossible since He can never transgress any law] But He is the Author and Creator of the being or beings that do and did commit sin or acts of sin. Both the sin of Adam, and Lucifer were determined by God for them to do. Did God foresee them sinning ? Yes He did, since He determined they do. This is not God's permissive will, but a predetermined counsel, for it is written Rom 8:20

    20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
    According to you, God authored sin.


    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Eph 3:8-11

    8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    This World was Created according to an Eternal Purpose of Grace [A Mystery] in Christ Jesus.

    2 Tim 1:9

    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    This was an Eternal Purpose wherein God's Elect were given Grace in Christ before the foundation;

    And within this Eternal Purpose of Grace, Christ was the Foreknown or Foreordained before the World Began 1 Pet 1:20

    20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    That means it was before this Gen 1:1-3

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    Now Christ also in the Same Eternal Purpose established before the foundation had been slain Rev 13:8

    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain [for sinners] from the foundation of the world.

    And so Adam was Created/ Made within the Scope of this Eternal Purpose of Grace. It was by the Purpose of God that sin should enter the world and death by sin Rom 5:12. You see death was the way Christ was to die for the Purpose of Grace Heb 2:9.

    Also in the Creation of Adam, God Created in him a principle of death, and assured him that he was surely going to eat and die Gen 2:17

    But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    He had to die because in the Eternal Purpose of God, Christ had to die .

    So the Death and Sin entering the World by Adam Rom 5:12 was in according to God's Purpose of Grace in Christ. It was God's Purpose that sin should [by adam] enter the world and death by sin, it was no fluke, no mistake, no backup plan, no, it was all according to God's Infinite Wisdom Rom 11:33

    33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

    That word wisdom means:

    ii.the wisdom of God as evinced in forming and executing counsels in the formation and government of the world and the scriptures.

    Adam's Transgression was brought forth according to God's Purpose in Christ and in Creation Col 1:16

    16 For by him[Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him[Christ], and for him[Christ]:

    For Christ before the World was ever Created, was already, in the Eternal Purpose of Grace, the Slain Lamb !
    According to you, the principle of death was created by God.

    According to you, God forced by decree, Adam to bring sin (which God authored) and the principle of death (which God created) into a world where suffering, pain, and sorrow, are caused by hatred, anguish, rape , murder, disobedience to parents, idolatry, witchcraft, bad attitudes, pride, and all the other sin which God authored.


    According to you, God is the author of all the sin in the world that the Bible speaks about.

    Do I understand correctly? Is that why you got an attitude towards me? Because according to you, Adam wasn't the author of sin, God was. And you can't see how a good God could author something so terrible. Your not alone; I can't see it either. The Bible doesn't say anywhere that God authored sin. That's your logical conclusion.

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    blackb

    Why do you continue to have an attitude?
    You the one being evasive !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    blackb



    You the one being evasive !
    Evasive or not, the Bible says nowhere that God authored sin. You made it up by means of irrational logic. You need to accept truth and not alter it to fit your theological logic; then apologize to everybody that reads your poor logic and beg their forgiveness for trying to lead them away from truth. What are you going to answer God at the judgment when He asks why you taught that He authored adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like? Shame....shame.... one would think you would know better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post
    Evasive or not, the Bible says nowhere that God authored sin. You made it up by means of irrational logic. You need to accept truth and not alter it to fit your theological logic; then apologize to everybody that reads your poor logic and beg their forgiveness for trying to lead them away from truth. What are you going to answer God at the judgment when He asks why you taught that He authored adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like? Shame....shame.... one would think you would know better.
    Evasion !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Adam must sin according to being made for the Lord Jesus Christ and His Eternal Purpose of Redemption, for all things, including Adam and those in him were made by and for the Lord Jesus Christ Col 1:16 !

    Also according to the Divine Purpose Adam must be given a Law in order for him to Transgress the Command of God, for if he would have obeyed the law or command, then that would have been counter to God's Purpose in Christ, whereas Christ had already been constituted the Lamb slain from the foundation Rev 13:8

    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Also 1 Pet 1:18-20

    18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

    19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    Yes, the Redeeming blood of Christ was foreordained before the foundation, hence before Adam was Created, who can deny that ?

    If Adam would have rendered perfect obedience and gained Eternal Life, that would have defeated the Eternal Purpose of creating all things for Jesus Christ.

    Scripture does declare that Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, before it began, and that all things were made by Him and for Him Col 1:16 as He was before all things Col 1:17, then all things were made by Him and for Him in that Capacity of being slain before the foundation !

    Thats why Adam must sin, and transgress the Law of God, for in the Eternal Purpose of God, He had already been wounded for our transgressions Isa 53:5

    But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    The wounded for our transgressions is the same as the being the slain Lamb from the foundation !

    Excellently explained! The Lamb was slain in the Eternal Purpose of God before the world and Adam were even created.
    Also, Adam had all of the Elect Seed in him as their Federal Head; those which God had already chosen and predestined
    to become saved from their sins by the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ, before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4-9 KJV),
    according to the counsel of His Own Will (Eph. 1:11 KJV). Yes, Adam's sinning was surely ordained of God.

    ~~~~~
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
    Excellently explained! The Lamb was slain in the Eternal Purpose of God before the world and Adam were even created.
    Also, Adam had all of the Elect Seed in him as their Federal Head; those which God had already chosen and predestined
    to become saved from their sins by the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ, before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4-9 KJV),
    according to the counsel of His Own Will (Eph. 1:11 KJV). Yes, Adam's sinning was surely ordained of God.

    ~~~~~
    Bless you , you are the only one here that responds favorablely to the Gospel Truth !

    Posted from the TOL App!
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

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