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Thread: The Eternal Purpose of creation !

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    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
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    The world finds its purpose for being created within the eternal purpose of Jesus Christ Eph 3:9-11,6

    9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


    10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    Of which purpose was Redemptive

    6
    That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    For it [ The Eternal Purpose] was regarding the gentiles being partakers of the Gospel promises, which promises were grounded in the blood of the everlasting covenant..

    Therefore it is nothing but spiritual blindness that people cannot understand that sin was part of Gods eternal purpose in creating the world, Adam must sin in order for the Eternal purpose of the gentiles being partakers of the gospel promises to be realized..
    Last edited by beloved57; August 8th, 2011 at 01:28 AM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    All Things were Created for Him, The Heir of All Things !

    Col 1:15-17

    15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


    Heb 1:2-3

    2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    By whom He [ God the Father ] made the Worlds, The Heir of All Things..

    The world was made by Him [ The Heir] and for Him, that is to manifest His redemptive purpose..

    The world and all therein, was created for a Divine redemptive purpose, a purpose which entailed the involvement of sin..

    The Son [ Jesus Christ, the last Adam] was the Heir of all things and not Adam.

    Jesus Christ was the Heir Son that was given Isa 9:6

    6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:

    This Son was the appointed Heir before being given Jn 3:16

    The Son, The Lord Jesus Christ was God's only begotten Son, Heir of all things [ 2 Cor 8:9 ] before He was Mary's baby..

    And as Gods only begotten Son, before all worlds, He was appointed Heir of all things, and it was as Heir He was appointed to die, for those who were joint heirs with Him..

    If one believes aright that Jesus Christ was God's Son before the incarnation, then they would believe that Jesus Christ was His Heir [ Rom 8:17] before the Incarnation, even before creation and the creation of Adam..

    In quoting a passage it is clearly seen that Jesus Christ was the sent Heir Matt 21:37-38

    37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. Notice, My Son, not Mary's Son..

    38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

    Mk 12:6-7


    6Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.

    7But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.'


    Lk 20:13-14

    13Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.

    14But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.

    You see, its a terrible misunderstanding in man made religion, that Adam was Gods intended heir of the world in the beginning when the world was made, but He was not, The Lord Jesus Christ, The Son of God was, and Adam and all things else were Created for Him and His Eternal Redemptive Purpose..

    Eph 3:8-10

    8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

    9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
    Last edited by beloved57; March 2nd, 2012 at 08:03 AM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
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    All things were created by Him and for Him !

    Col 1:16

    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Jn 1:3

    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Jn 1:10

    He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    When I ponder ponder these verses about Jesus Christ at least three sublime truth's are impressed into my mind:

    #1. The Deity and equality of the Christ with the Father

    #2. That Jesus Christ the God Man Mediator existed before creation

    #3. That sin coming into the world by Adam [ Rom 5:12] was purposed by God, in that the world and all things else were created for and subservient to God's eternal redemptive purpose centering in in Jesus Christ and more specifically His cross Eph 3:9-11


    9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    The Lord Jesus Christ's pre existence is also taught in Col 1:16-17

    17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    He is before all things

    It says also that by Him or in Him all things consist..or all things cohere in Christ..To cohere in Christ is to exist together by christ as the holding center, similar to how the spokes in a wheel are held together by the hub in the center, now understand this is referencing the pre incarnate Christ who is before all things. Notice all things were created for [unto Him]vs 16 which again indicates that Christ is the end unto which creation came into being or was made..



    Last edited by beloved57; October 8th, 2013 at 10:44 PM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    All things were created by Him and for Him ! cont

    Now in view of this NT passage Col 1:16-17 and its supporters Jn 1: 3, 10, and not really having even scratched the surface of the Mystery of Christ, He being Creator, how does that square with an OT scripture such as this one Prov 16:4

    4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    The NT says if Christ Col 1:16

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


    If we look carefully at Prov 16:4 we have none other than Jehovah being set forth as the maker or creator of all things, and all things said to be made for Himself or unto Himself, so we have one inspired writer attributing Creation by and for Christ and another writing that its by and for Jehovah !It there a contradiction here ? By no means, at least not to us who have been given an understanding that the Jehovah in the OT is also the Christ in the NT, remembering such words as Jn 14:8-9

    8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

    9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

    Notice how Jesus answered this inquiry of Philip, he asked, Lord show us the Father and Jesus replied and said

    Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?

    Think about that answer, what was Jesus saying here ? He is basically saying what is said earlier in Jn 10:30

    30 I and my Father are one.

    You see, The Man Jesus Christ was also the Eternal Logos Jn 1:1 which was One Essence with God the Father, that is Unbegotten and UnCreated.

    The Lord Jesus Christ in His Essential Being is Jehovah God and He and the Father are of One Divine Essence.

    That Jesus was actually calling Himself God in Jn 10:30,33 is seen by the reaction and comments those Jews made in vs 33

    33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

    If we believe Jn 1:1 its perfectly understandable that God The Father and the Word of God are one..and thats what Jesus is referencing to in Jn 10:30.

    So there is no contradiction or no misunderstanding in The Lord Jesus Christ being the Creator of all things and they being created for Him, and Jehovah Prov 16:4 being the maker of all things and they being made for Him..

    The worship of those in rev 4 applies to both the Lamb and the Father equally Rev 4:10-11

    10The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

    11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    Now can this apply to Jesus Christ ? read Col 1:16

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    Last edited by beloved57; October 17th, 2013 at 07:26 AM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    All things were created by and for Him, Jesus christ !

    Col 1:16

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    This means all things were created with a redemptive, soterilogical purpose:

    #1. Heaven was created for Christ- which includes the third heaven 2 Cor 12:2

    2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

    The heaven as the firmament Gen 1:1-8

    1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


    2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

    5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

    6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

    7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

    8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

    Hebrews tells us too that the heavens are the works of His hand Heb 1:8-10

    8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


    9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

    Now remember, this creating of the heavens were for a redemptive soterilogical purpose if we believe Col 1:16. God was creating the heaven and the earth in the beginning for the purpose of displaying His redemptive eternal purpose in Christ Eph 3:9-11

    9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


    10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
    11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    So the heavens and the earth were made by and for [unto] Christ..
    Last edited by beloved57; October 30th, 2013 at 08:11 AM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    All things were created by and for Him, Jesus Christ !

    Not only were the heavens made by and for Jesus Christ, but also #2. The Angels were made for Jesus Christ, both good and evil..

    I recall scripture says that when He returns, He will have His Angels with Him Matt 16:27

    For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



    Matthew 24:31
    And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    In forming the Eternal Purpose of redemption, God was pleased that the elect Angels [ see 1 Timothy 5:21] would be employed by Him unto the Heirs of salvation [ see Heb 1:13-14]

    note: here: The Heirs of salvation were known and loved by God in His Eternal Purpose from eternity and before they actually existed in time..

    The Angels were made by Him and for Him to worship Him Heb 1:5-6


    5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    The evil angels too serve Him and His eternal purpose, and He made them also, in Col 1:16 we read:

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


    For He created or made, brought into existence Thrones, Dominions, Principalities, Powers, and within the scope of these things, are the angelic, heavenly authorities, whether good or evil, and As Jehovah made the wicked [ Prov 16:4] both wicked men and angels are made to serve the Eternal redemptive purpose in Christ..


    These principalities, powers and authorities are not limited to heavenly invisible beings, but to also that which is seen here in our under world, human government and authorities as well..

    Rom 8:38

    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

    Eph 3:10

    To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,


    Eph 6:12

    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    Notice, the rulers of darkness of this world , the greek is:

    kosmokratōr :

    lord of the world, prince of this age

    a) the devil and his demons

    Jn 12:31

    31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

    And we know these are angels.. So all these angels, both good and evil were made by Christ and for Christ to serve His Eternal and Soterilogical Purpose unto the Glory of God..

    Even now all these things and creatures and powers and authorities are under His subjection and serving His purpose see 1 Pet 3:22

    Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

    These authorities and powers have been made subject to Him..

    This is the passive voice aorist tense, so its past tense, and the word subject here is the greek word:

    hypotassō which means:

    to arrange under, to subordinate
    2) to subject, put in subjection
    3) to subject one's self, obey
    4) to submit to one's control
    5) to yield to one's admonition or advice
    6) to obey, be subject

    All these entities good or evil are under His control and obey His Sovereign Power see Matt 28:18

    And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    How many of us believe to day that all demonic and devilish forces are obeying the risen Christ ? Even while on earth a glimpse of this glory was given and acknowledged : Mk 1:27

    And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

    You see that, even the unclean spirits, they do obey Him, if then, how much more so in His Glory ?

    Look at the activity of unclean spirits ! Matt 12:43-45

    43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.


    44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

    45Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

    Do you believe today that these unclean spirits are under the control and obedience of Christ ?

    I certainly do, in light of 1 Pet 3:22 it has to be true..

    And so, all Angels both good and evil were made by Him and for Him..
    Last edited by beloved57; November 18th, 2013 at 02:53 AM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Yes, I guess I see where you're coming from but I think you're missing the big picture here.

    First, you must deal with the issue of Fonzie claiming to be cool yet he was really about as far away from "cool" as you could possibly get. Now I know you're going to try and bring up the fact that nobody could be that conceited without actually being truly cool but I beg to differ.

    Of course I could go off on the whole realization that "Happy Days" was truly a very lame show but that's a whole other topic and I don't want to lose focus on what is being discussed. The real issue here which must be decided once and for all...

    Tomatoes... are they a fruit or a vegetable?
    "The most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan



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    Hell was created for Christ !

    All things that were ever created, were created by and for Christ Col 1:16

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Hell and the Lake of fire were created for Christ, that hell is a place cannot be denied if one believes the bible, a place where the wicked will be punished eternally both in body and soul. It is apparent that hell was made for the purpose of Christ, when He was appointed in the eternal counsels to reign and to judge the world..

    Acts 17:31

    31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    Matt 25: 31-46; Lets note vs 41

    41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    That word prepared is the greek word hetoimazo which means:


    to make ready, prepare
    1. to make the necessary preparations, get everything ready
    And its in the perfect tense, a once and for all completed act in the past, not to be repeated and continues into the future..

    I believe the lake of fire for the devil and His Angels were prepared before creation of the earth, and I believe the kingdom of Glory for the saints was created before the creation of the world..

    Notice vs 34

    34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world


    http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/vi...=025&verse=034


    http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/vi...rse=41#Mt25_41

    When it is said that the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and His Angels, I believe included with the devil is all his seed or posterity in Him..

    So as Christ and His body or members are One 1 Cor 12:12 so it is with the devil and His seed..

    So in essence what I am saying is that the same lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels was also prepared for His seed because they are one with Him..

    This is why it is said in Jude that certain men were before of old written to this condemnation..

    And why it is said in Rom 9 vessels of wrath were they made and fitted for destruction..They were made to go to the place made for them before the world began..

    The Father prepared for His Son a eternal kingdom, and since He views His seed being one with Him, He likewise prepared for them a kingdom cp Lk 22:29 with Matt 25:34..

    But hell was created a prison for the enemies of God and His Christ and their people, all this included in the eternal redemptive purpose of God..

    God chose this way to manifest His excellent perfections, to the Glory and Praise of His Grace, and to the Glory and Praise of His Justice..
    Last edited by beloved57; November 18th, 2013 at 02:46 AM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

  9. #39
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    This world was made for Christ !

    Many today believe that this world was made for Adam, but it was not, it was made for Jesus Christ Col 1:16

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    The world [ Kosmos ] was made by Him ! John 1 :10

    10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    The word by here is the greek prep dia which means here:

    through

    a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
    1) by reason of
    2) on account of
    3) because of for this reason
    4) therefore
    5) on this account

    He was the reason, the account of, why the kosmos was made or brought into being..

    The creation of the world had a soterilogical purpose which involved salvation from sin..

    This world was created for Christ for the display of His natural perfections which entailed him becoming incarnated for the redemption of His people.., for His creative wisdom before the angelic world, for we are told it was He who laid the foundations of the earth Heb 1:10

    10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

    And they [ the angels] shouted for Joy.. Job 38:4-7

    4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.


    5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

    6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

    7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God[angels by creation] shouted for joy? note: These would have been the elect angels..

    Oh yes, for you skeptics and infidels, the same Lord speaking in job 38 about laying the foundations of the earth is the same Lord that is identified as the Son in Heb 1:8-10 lets read:

    8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


    9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

    By His Incarnation this world was a place for Him to display all of His God Honoring Moral perfections, the Glories of an Incarnate God Man..and that perfection of which all His redeemed ones have laid to their account and will come to experience in its fulness at His second coming..

    This kosmos was created to display the working out of Gods eternal purpose of redemption, the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ being its goal, this purpose from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

    8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain [ in Gods eternal purpose see Eph 3:11] from the foundation of the world..

    It was created to be the province of His Mediatorial Kingdom, where His chosen would be prepared by His grace for the entrance into His everlasting kingdom from above..1Pet 5:10-11

    10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

    11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

    When this present kosmos order has served its purpose from eternity, Christ will be done with it, its end of creation having been accomplished, then its time for it to be destroyed, the visible heavens being made on fire, will be dissolved and the elements [the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe] shall melt with fervent heat, and the earth as we know it shall be burnt up, and will afterwords be renewed with the perfections of Its Redeemer, the Lord of Glory..The Lord Jesus Christ..
    Last edited by beloved57; November 18th, 2013 at 01:17 AM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    All Men were made for Christ !

    The human race and all the inhabitants of the world were made for Christ Dan 4:35

    35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

    They were created to manifest his ability to form different kinds and order of beings. In creating the inferior beings [ animals] he displayed his ability to create material beings, and their various usefulness to mankind..In the creation of man He showed His ability to make beings who were both material and spiritual, that is the union of the material body with the spiritual and immortal soul..

    The humans were created for Christ that he may display His infinite perfections in the redemption of their souls, in this grand display and work is made known the most wonderful display of His perfections which men or angels will ever behold..

    Now in creating mankind, they were created for different displays of the Divine Purposes, some of us were created as vessels of mercy, and some of us were created as vessels of wrath per Rom 9:13-24

    13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


    14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

    15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

    16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

    18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

    19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

    20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

    21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    All men are made within the eternal purpose of the purpose of election Rom 9:11

    And within that purpose, we [ from everlasting] are either hated by God or Loved by God vs 13..

    Jacob is Representative of all the beloved of God within the purpose of election and Esau is Representative of all the hated of God within the purpose of election..

    Each person or group of persons have been made, that is bought into being, to display God's purpose of mercy for sinners or Gods wrath for sinners..

    The vessels of wrath vs 22 are also what scripture terms the wicked as in Prov 16:4

    4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    This is not speaking about people who do wicked things, but people whom all their lives, no matter what, whether very religious or non religious, will only be the wicked before God, that is vessels of wrath, created for that purpose..

    The elect, are the righteous, even when they are born by nature, wicked in their mind and works..Col 1:21

    And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

    Now, who are the And You that Paul is addressing here, when he declares, ye were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works !

    Let me tell you now, He was not speaking to the those who are called the wicked in Prov 16:4 but He is speaking to the beloved of God..

    Lets look at a scripture in col that will confirm this. Col 3:12

    Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

    This being beloved, was a true fact, while they were alienated and enemies in their minds by wicked works, for they were the beloved of God before they were born into that condition, even from everlasting were they the beloved of God, and never " The wicked " of Prov 16:4

    But the beloved of God are born in the sinful condition we are by nature, for the purpose of mercy, thats why Paul says some are vessels of mercy Rom 9:23, this mercy is displayed to them, because of what they are by nature..but, even though that is True by nature, yet are they also the righteous.. The gospel declares righteous all those believing in Jesus Christ, but before God declares one righteous, He must first view you as righteous, and just how is that done ?

    2 Cor 5:21

    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Everyone Christ was made sin for, [ died for their sins] has been made righteous by God, because their sins, their wicked works, were never laid to their charge 2 Cor 5:19

    19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    Their sins were not imputed unto them, the word imputed here is the greek word:
    logizomai :

    to reckon, count, compute, calculate, count over
    a) to take into account, to make an account of
    1) metaph. to pass to one's account, to impute

    Their sins were not laid to their account as the word means here in 2 Tim 4:16

    16At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge

    So the force of what Paul is saying in 2 Cor 5:19, is that their is a world [ both jews and gentiles] who God does not lay to their charge, all their trespasses and sins that they shall commit. And since they never had their sins laid to their charge, they were not guilty of their crimes, and instead, their head, the Lord Jesus Christ was made to suffer and die for their crimes, because instead of God laying them to their account, He laid them to His account..Isa 53:6

    6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    You see, God is too Just, to have laid their sins to their charge, and at the same time laid them to the charge of their shepherd !

    And so the non imputation of their sins, was accompanied by the imputation of His righteousness [ their shepherd] to their account, hence they were made righteous by imputation Rom 4:6-8


    6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


    7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    So here we see both imputations go hand in hand, those whom have imputed righteousness vs 6 are those who have not had their sins imputed unto them vs 8 and 2 Cor 5:19

    And so, we have it, God or Christ made both the wicked and the righteous.. for His redemptive purpose..

    The wicked, are the vessels of wrath, who do have their sins imputed to their charge, and the vessels of mercy, the righteous, do not have their sins laid to their charge, but instead to the charge of their shepherd, and the shepherd giveth His life for the sheep, and not the goats..
    Last edited by beloved57; November 18th, 2013 at 02:43 AM.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    beloved,

    You are following a preconcieved assumption which is not scriptural about the sovereignty of God. You're saying God created evil and not only created evil but takes pleasure in it. Are you insane? Why don't you study your Bible with a mind that seeks to know the character God instead of using it as an instrument to try to prove a false assumption? You know you're ignoring scripture that knocks your theory all to pieces. Look @ Ezekiel 33:11; Ezekiel 18 :21-28; Isaiah 55:7; Psalm 5:4 . You are well aware that you're disclaiming scripture that more than balances your tweaked perception of God. Revelation 2:21; Luke 13:34; Matthew 23:37; He would have, they would not. Luke 19:41, I thought He takes pleasure in working out His will; even in people who refuse Him. He must have been weeping for joy over ********* Jerusalem! It's impossible to study all scripture and arrive at your conclusions.

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    black:

    beloved,

    You are following a preconcieved assumption which is not scriptural about the sovereignty of God. You're saying God created evil and not only created evil but takes pleasure in it
    Maybe you need to reread the thread, Its very scriptural..I dont think you understand why this world was made, for what purpose, read the thread..
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    black:



    Maybe you need to reread the thread, Its very scriptural..I dont think you understand why this world was made, for what purpose, read the thread..
    I think you're saying it was created for the glory and pleasure of God. God and Christ are one. John 10:30 ;John 1:1. Can you say that creating evil brings pleasure to God?

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    black:

    I think you're saying it was created for the glory and pleasure of God.
    Yes, but how ? I go through great detail explaining how and why ? For all things were created for Christ, Why ?
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Not only were the heavens made by and for Jesus Christ, but also #2. The Angels were made for Jesus Christ, both good and evil..

    I recall scripture says that when He returns, He will have His Angels with Him matt 16:27

    For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



    Matthew 24:31
    And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    In forming the Eternal Purpose of redemption, God was pleased that the elect Angels [ see 1 Timothy 5:21] would be employed by Him unto the Heirs of salvation [ see heb 1:13-14]

    note: here: The Heirs of salvation were known and loved by God in His Eternal Purpose from eternity and before they actually existed in time..

    The Angels were made by Him and for Him to worship Him heb 1:


    5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    The evil angels too serve Him and His eternal purpose, and He made them also, in col 1 16 we read:

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


    For He created or made, brought into existence Thrones, Dominions, Principalities, Powers, and within the scope of these things, are the angelic, heavenly authorities, whether good or evil, and As Jehovah made the wicked [ prov 16:4] both wicked men and angels are made to serve the Eternal redemptive purpose in Christ..


    These principalities, powers and authorities are not limited to heavenly invisible beings, but to also that which is seen here in our under world, human government and authorities as well..

    rom 8:38

    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

    eph 3:10

    To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,


    eph 6:12

    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    Notice, the rulers of darkness of this world , the greek is:

    kosmokratōr :
    lord of the world, prince of this age
    a) the devil and his demons

    Jn 12:

    31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

    And we know these are angels.. So all these angels, both good and evil were made by Christ and for Christ to serve His Eternal and Soterilogical Purpose unto the Glory of God..

    Even now all these things and creatures and powers and authorities are under His subjection and serving His purpose see 1 pet 3:22

    Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

    These authorities and powers have been made subject to Him..

    This is the passive voice aorist tense, so its past tense, and the word subject here is the greek word:

    hypotassō which means:

    to arrange under, to subordinate
    2) to subject, put in subjection
    3) to subject one's self, obey
    4) to submit to one's control
    5) to yield to one's admonition or advice
    6) to obey, be subject

    All these entities good or evil are under His control and obey His Sovereign Power see Matt 28:18

    And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    How many of us believe to day that all demonic and devilish forces are obeying the risen Christ ? Even while on earth a glimpse of this glory was given and acknowledged : mk 1:27

    And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

    You see that, even the unclean spirits, they do obey Him, if then, how much more so in His Glory ?

    Look at the activity of unclean spirits ! Matt 12:

    43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.


    44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

    45Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

    Do you believe today that these unclean spirits are under the control and obedience of Christ ?

    I certainly do, in light of 1 pet 3 22 it has to be true..

    And so, all Angels both good and evil were made by Him and for Him..
    I think I'm finally beginning to comprehend what your'e saying. God created everything that exists for His own purpose and glory, including what we think of as evil. But because God, who is perfect And holy, is working out His will in all of what He created and perfectly controls all of what He created, it's not really evil at all because it's God's purpose being fulfilled. Therefore, everything that is done by anyone doing it is really fulfilling God's will because it is impossible for anyone or anything to act independantly of God. Everything that everybody does and can imagine to do in obedience to the will of God. So if I think someone may be doing evil, they're not really because they are acting out the will of a sovereign God. They really must be doing the will of God because nobody can act outside of the will of God; it's totally impossible to go against the will of God. Even satan himself cannot act outside the will of God. So in the garden, when Adam was fulfilling the will of God by eating off of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he wasn't doing anything wrong; he actually was doing the will of his father(Luke 3:38). Also, when Jesus, the second Adam, was nailed to the cross to fulfill the purpose and plan of His father, the soldiers, scribes, pharisees, and the rest creation were also doing the will their father. God must have been their father because they were doing His will. They could do no other. They were forced by a sovereign God to serve Him and to do His will. Since God is not evil, and nothing he does is evil, and everything that ever happens is really God doing it by means of His creation, there can be no evil at all. It is all "very good".Genesis 1:31

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