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Thread: ARCHIVE: My niece is gay and I love her for it. So does God.

  1. #31
    Rookie calvinistkid's Avatar
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    Wickwoman, I would like to know how you come to the conclusion that my beliefs are "illogical". I would agree that from YOUR worldview they are, but from my worldview YOUR position is illogical. You see, a person's most fundamental beliefs (who God is, why they exist, etc.) determine the way that they look at life. I believe that homosexuality is a sin because I believe that a sovereign God decrees it is so. You may deny the existence of my particular deity, but that does not in any way make my position illogical (if my particular deity does not exist, then I may be WRONG, but wrong and illogical are two very different things).
    Secondly, I would like to address your accusation that I am being "judgemental". You claim that she was born that way, and that it is wrong to say that the way she was born is not "good". For a minute I am going to lay aside my disagreement with you about the possibility/impossibility of being born homosexual. We could argue about that for months and I have a feeling that neither one of us would get anywhere. So let's assume for a moment that she WAS born that way. Does that make it right? Let me give you an example. I have a friend who'se brother was born with down's syndrome. Now, he did not have down's syndrome through any fault of his own. However, his family sought to place him into programs to overcome the symptoms of this disease so that he could live a "normal" life. Was that being "hateful" or "judgemental"? Were we being "intolerant" of his status as mentaly and physicaly retarded by seeking to "fix" him? I hope you see my point here. Even if homosexuality was something that you could be born with, what makes it different than any other birth defect that we would throw up our hands and say "Too bad. They were just born that way."?
    Taken from a poem entiled "Smoking Spiritualized"
    THIS Indian weed now wither'd quite,
    Tho' green at noon, cut down at night,
    Shows thy decay;
    All flesh is hay.
    Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

    The smoke, like burning incense, tow'rs;
    So should a praying heart of yours,
    With ardent cries,
    Surmount the skies.
    Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

  2. #32
    Over 500 post club wickwoman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by calvinistkid
    Let me give you an example. I have a friend who'se brother was born with down's syndrome. Now, he did not have down's syndrome through any fault of his own. However, his family sought to place him into programs to overcome the symptoms of this disease so that he could live a "normal" life. Was that being "hateful" or "judgemental"? Were we being "intolerant" of his status as mentaly and physicaly retarded by seeking to "fix" him? I hope you see my point here. Even if homosexuality was something that you could be born with, what makes it different than any other birth defect that we would throw up our hands and say "Too bad. They were just born that way."?
    No, it is not bad that your friends want their child to live a normal life, however, it would be bad if your friends decided that because their child did not overcome his/her physical limitations he/she would have to go to Hell for all eternity.

    I respect your beliefs. I'm sorry if I was disrespectful. Sometimes I get carried away. You see, this issue is very personal for me. I love my niece very much and wouldn't want to change a thing about her. My only wish for her is that she be happy. If I, a human being, am capable of such love, how much more is God?
    "When I do good I feel good. When I do bad I feel bad. That's my religion."
    -Abraham Lincoln

  3. #33
    Registered User Sozo's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Something wicked this way comes....

    Originally posted by wickwoman


    Since I don't believe in sin you can call anything you want a sin and it doesn't frighten me. When something doesn't exist, it doesn't exist and "sin" is not a real thing that exists. It is something dreamed up in the mind of man to perpetuate the falacy that man is separate from God.
    Then why did you refer to it as a sin?

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    Over 500 post club wickwoman's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Something wicked this way comes....

    Originally posted by Sozo


    Then why did you refer to it as a sin?
    Lion referred to pedophilia in the same vain as homosexuality. I believe the remark from me was that Lion got "his" sins mixed up, if you want to get technical. Thus eluding to the fact that Lion thinks homosexuality is a sin. So, if I call something a sin, that would be to say a Christian thinks this it is a sin. It is a somewhat sarcastic comment.
    "When I do good I feel good. When I do bad I feel bad. That's my religion."
    -Abraham Lincoln

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    Journeyman Calvinist's Avatar
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    Define me, narrow me, you deprive yourself of yourself. Nail me down in a box of cold words, those words are your coffin. --Rumi

    I thought the expression was, "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me."
    "Servetus has just sent me a long volume of his ravings. If I consent he will come here, but I will not give my word for if he comes here, if my authority is worth anything, I will never permit him to depart alive ("Si venerit, modo valeat mea autoritas, vivum exire nunquam patiar").[3]

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    Originally posted by wickwoman


    No, it is not bad that your friends want their child to live a normal life, however, it would be bad if your friends decided that because their child did not overcome his/her physical limitations he/she would have to go to Hell for all eternity.
    Well, I think you are slightly misunderstanding my beliefs. I believe that homosexuality is wrong, but I don't believe that it is the homosexuality per se that will send her to hell. It is the sinful nature that we are all born with. The homosexuality is merely an outgrowth of this nature. If God choses to change her sinful nature ("save" her), then she will be given the desire AND the ability to turn from her current lifestyle.

    Originally posted by wickwoman
    I respect your beliefs. I'm sorry if I was disrespectful. Sometimes I get carried away. You see, this issue is very personal for me. I love my niece very much and wouldn't want to change a thing about her. My only wish for her is that she be happy. If I, a human being, am capable of such love, how much more is God?
    I understand that this is a personal issue. I would not want you to stop loving your niece. However, I believe that it is quite possible to correct in love.
    Taken from a poem entiled "Smoking Spiritualized"
    THIS Indian weed now wither'd quite,
    Tho' green at noon, cut down at night,
    Shows thy decay;
    All flesh is hay.
    Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

    The smoke, like burning incense, tow'rs;
    So should a praying heart of yours,
    With ardent cries,
    Surmount the skies.
    Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

  7. #37
    Over 500 post club wickwoman's Avatar
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    Dear Calvinistkid:

    I assume you are a Calvinist. I don't know a lot about Calvinism. Based on your post above it appears that only some are chosen by God, others will be doomed? Is that correct? I am not being critical, only curious. Have you ever referred to it as "fate?"

    I am a firm believer in fate, that things are chosen beforehand to be a certain way (possibly by us in our pre-birth state) and that we choose our particular disabilities, defects, habits, or propensities so that we can learn from them and spiritually evolve into the perfect spiritual beings we are one day to be.

    So, if someone wanted to say a homosexual chose to be such PRIOR to their birth and this "difference" would be a way for them to better themselves spiritually, then I would agree wholeheartedly. However, to say that sexual preference is a sin, is to put too much emphasis on the physical body which, for the most part, is only a vehicle we use to travel through this life.

    Look at all of nature which is only a reflection of the creator. Even flowers are sexual, it is the way they continue their species. So, as to what sex God is, if forced to chose, I would have to say he/she is a hermaphrodite. Because all came from him/her and there was no one who pre-existed God. Therefore, he would have no one to mate with in order to give birth to the universe. It is also possible that God does not have a body, so he/she is neither male, nor female.

    Homosexuality is a threat, mostly to men, because it brings a third sex into the equation - one who may look like something on the outside, but feel like something else on the inside. And since, at the root of Christianity is the belief that men are put at the head of the family, thus superior, this makes things a little muddy.

    Or how about this idea, natural selection is the process by which a population is kept under control. I believe "they" say that more people are alive right now than have lived and died in the history of man. That's amazing! I think we all know the earth is over populated. Some will die of diseases, starvation will weed out some. Absent intervention, a homosexual cannot procreate with his or her partner. What if homosexuality is nature's answer for reducing the population of the earth? When we just put some thought into these important issues rather than placing them quickly into neat little categories that don't frighten us, it's amazing what answers we can come up with.
    "When I do good I feel good. When I do bad I feel bad. That's my religion."
    -Abraham Lincoln

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    Journeyman o2bwise's Avatar
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    Post My Own Unique View

    My view is definitely in contrast to everyone else's here.

    Poly, Lion...
    To equate pedophilia with homosexuality without extensive explanation is pathetic. This is the Current Events forum where people's beliefs are far more pluralistic than those beliefs you can conveniently wrap within the confines of your own.

    In short, words are recipient-dependent. In this case, they couldn't work. They could only harm. I am inclined to think "hurting" was your intent all along.

    And Poly, your words about "evil loving evil," well, thank God that while we were still sinners (evil), Christ died for us. Do you embrace a theology so deviant from that of Christ?


    wickwoman,

    Here is my view and it is the view of one within recovery for homosexuality. No one chooses to be homosexual. I agree.

    But, it is at least hypothetically possible that humans were created in such a way that were they to be 100% "whole" in a psychological sense, their only mode of sexual expression could be heterosexual within a life-long committed monogamous relationship.

    Conversely, if one is homosexual, that is symptomatic of an inner brokenness of heart. And were that brokenness healed, the person would be homosexual no more.

    I state this as a hypothetical. Assuming it is true, far be it from me to insist that "unwellness" is "wellness."

    Now, you claim that your niece may be gay because of genetic factors, i.e. she was born that way. Well, so what? Biblically speaking, even our very flesh has a moral component. Sin is of the mind, but our flesh is a source of pulls to submit to sin.

    The Christian life is, in part, a call to have the lusts and passions of the flesh be crucified. One is not appealing to biblical Christianity when one advocates a certain behavior on the premise that one has a propensity for that behavior due to one's very own genetics.

    I am not here to insist your niece is "lost." I know of homosexuals who were "born again" and remained in homosexual monogamous relationships - for a season. We are all sinners. Particular sins are revealed, not in a moment, but in progressive fashion.

    But, it is my own sense that it does not take long in the Christian walk of sanctification before one happens upon the discernment that homosexuality indeed is sin.

    I would guess that IF your niece is a spiritual person and given her contentment in homosexuality, she is at a baby stage in her walk.


    Back to the "Christians." I do not think most have any idea how truly difficult this particular sin is. And I think this is precisely WHY it is biblically referred to as an abomination. The sin itself has such binding cords. Recovery is a process. It may take years.

    As an example, I know one homosexual for whom the very thought of being intimate with a woman is totally repulsive to him.

    How would any of you like to be like that? How would you like to be such a way that you sexually burn for your own sex and are repulsed by the opposite sex?

    Heed the admonishment of Hebrews 13 (I believe verse 3). Walk in his moccasins. Not in his sin, but understand the prison bars that hold him. Trace cause and effect.

    If you did, there would be far more compassion and love - and NO judgment. That would be left to God.

    Tony (o2)
    Founder of "Iconoclasts Anonymous" Recovery Groups

  9. #39
    Just livin' life one day at a time. Poly's Avatar
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    Re: My Own Unique View

    Originally posted by o2bwise
    And Poly, your words about "evil loving evil," well, thank God that while we were still sinners (evil), Christ died for us.
    Yes, thank God, He did so that we could be (evil) no more.
    Do you embrace a theology so deviant from that of Christ?
    No
    "The most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan



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    Post A Post Without Substance

    Poly,

    My point stands, unrefuted. God loves that niece, thus, it need not follow that wickwoman loves her niece because she (wickwoman) is evil.

    You seem to have some understanding of the law. I look forward to the day you have a deeper understanding of its weightier matters.

    o2
    Founder of "Iconoclasts Anonymous" Recovery Groups

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    Re: A Post Without Substance

    Originally posted by o2bwise

    You seem to have some understanding of the law. I look forward to the day you have a deeper understanding of its weightier matters.
    Oh let me guess. By saying weightier matters you must be refering to the idea that Jesus was embarrassed by what His Father the mean old tyrant, said in the law so He came to change it around bit while He was here.
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    Over 500 post club wickwoman's Avatar
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    Quote Polycarpadvo:

    "you must be refering to the idea that Jesus was embarrassed by what His Father the mean old tyrant, said in the law so He came to change it around bit while He was here."

    Jesus came to correct the idea that MAN had made his Mother/Father into a mean old tyrant.
    "When I do good I feel good. When I do bad I feel bad. That's my religion."
    -Abraham Lincoln

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    Rookie calvinistkid's Avatar
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    Originally posted by wickwoman
    Dear Calvinistkid:

    I assume you are a Calvinist. I don't know a lot about Calvinism. Based on your post above it appears that only some are chosen by God, others will be doomed? Is that correct? I am not being critical, only curious. Have you ever referred to it as "fate?"

    I am a firm believer in fate, that things are chosen beforehand to be a certain way (possibly by us in our pre-birth state) and that we choose our particular disabilities, defects, habits, or propensities so that we can learn from them and spiritually evolve into the perfect spiritual beings we are one day to be.
    Yes, I am a calvinist. Yes, I believe that some are chosen by God while others are not. No, I don't refer to it as "fate", mainly because the term implies control by an impersonal force. While I do believe that our lives are controlled, I believe that this controll is exerted by a sovereign, loving, holy, and just God for the purpose of his own glory. I very firmly disagree with your suggestion that this chosing is done by us in any way. Some may ask why a holy God would choose to have some live lives of sin. To this I would reply that I honestly don't know for sure. I suspect that it is because he desires for ALL aspects of his being to be revealed. If He chose to save every man, woman, and child ever born, that would display his love, but it would end there. We would never see his justice, his holiness, his intolerance for all things impure. Even the concept of mercy would lose its beauty without something to compare it with. If God choses to create some solely for the purpose of displaying his justice in them, then so be it. It is his right as creator to do with his creation as he pleases. As far as "evolving into the perfect spiritual beings we are one day to be", I believe that this is the case for all those chosen by God, not for all of mankind. And because the Bible teaches physical ressurection (and I believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God), I believe that in this perfect state we will have perfect physical bodies.

    Originally posted by wickwoman
    So, if someone wanted to say a homosexual chose to be such PRIOR to their birth and this "difference" would be a way for them to better themselves spiritually, then I would agree wholeheartedly. However, to say that sexual preference is a sin, is to put too much emphasis on the physical body which, for the most part, is only a vehicle we use to travel through this life.
    Again, I disagree. I do not see such an extreme division between body and soul.

    Originally posted by wickwoman
    Look at all of nature which is only a reflection of the creator. Even flowers are sexual, it is the way they continue their species. So, as to what sex God is, if forced to chose, I would have to say he/she is a hermaphrodite. Because all came from him/her and there was no one who pre-existed God. Therefore, he would have no one to mate with in order to give birth to the universe. It is also possible that God does not have a body, so he/she is neither male, nor female.
    I would agree in a sense with your statement that nature is a reflection of the creator. The Bible says "the heavens declare the Glory of God. The skies proclaim the work of his hands." You mention that even the flowers are sexual beings. I would point out that there are no "homosexual flowers". In fact, homosexuality is only found in mankind. Why? Because since animals and plants have no souls and are not given minds as humanity is, they are incapable of sin. As far as God's gender is concerned, I believe that He is male, although since you apparently deny the authority of the Bible there is really no way to convince you of that point.

    Originally posted by wickwoman
    Homosexuality is a threat, mostly to men, because it brings a third sex into the equation - one who may look like something on the outside, but feel like something else on the inside. And since, at the root of Christianity is the belief that men are put at the head of the family, thus superior, this makes things a little muddy.
    Actualy, Christianity does not teach that man is "superior", it teaches that he has a position of authority. There is a difference.

    If you would like to learn more about what I believe, feel free to send me an e-mail or private message. I am always open to friendly discussion.

    In Christ,
    Leon
    Taken from a poem entiled "Smoking Spiritualized"
    THIS Indian weed now wither'd quite,
    Tho' green at noon, cut down at night,
    Shows thy decay;
    All flesh is hay.
    Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

    The smoke, like burning incense, tow'rs;
    So should a praying heart of yours,
    With ardent cries,
    Surmount the skies.
    Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

  14. #44
    Over 500 post club wickwoman's Avatar
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    Dear Leon:

    Re: homosexual plants

    Actually, there are plants that contain both the male and female "necessary components." Just for accuracy.

    thanks for sharing your beliefs.
    "When I do good I feel good. When I do bad I feel bad. That's my religion."
    -Abraham Lincoln

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    Rookie calvinistkid's Avatar
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    Originally posted by wickwoman
    Dear Leon:

    Re: homosexual plants

    Actually, there are plants that contain both the male and female "necessary components." Just for accuracy.

    thanks for sharing your beliefs.
    Yes, but aren't the "male" parts interacting with the "female" parts? Wouldn't that still be hererosexual activity, even though both are on the same plant? Is there an example of two male plant parts interacting or two female plant parts interacting for some reason? I admit that I only have a highschool-level knowledge of biology, but I have never heard of anything like that happening.
    Taken from a poem entiled "Smoking Spiritualized"
    THIS Indian weed now wither'd quite,
    Tho' green at noon, cut down at night,
    Shows thy decay;
    All flesh is hay.
    Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

    The smoke, like burning incense, tow'rs;
    So should a praying heart of yours,
    With ardent cries,
    Surmount the skies.
    Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

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